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Decision Time: To Upgrade OPTs for Maggie 9304-20 or Not!?! Help

kward said:
I still wouldn't do it. The maggie OPTs have a level of magic in the mids and high frequencies that are hard to beat. But as you can tell, I value mid and high frequency information more than I value low frequency information. Certainly others preferences will differ.

Also remember that when you change output transformers you are changing the sonic signature of the amp.. You may introduce HF instability or possibly make HF performance worse, unless you retune the amp. Retuning requires a scope, signal generator, a little bit of knowledge, and patience.

One more thing. having used Edcor iron before, I can say with some confidence that the HF performance of the maggie opts will easily meet and possibly beat the Edcors.
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Bingo, a man that gets it.
 
kward said:
I still wouldn't do it. The maggie OPTs have a level of magic in the mids and high frequencies that are hard to beat. But as you can tell, I value mid and high frequency information more than I value low frequency information. Certainly others preferences will differ.

Also remember that when you change output transformers you are changing the sonic signature of the amp.. You may introduce HF instability or possibly make HF performance worse, unless you retune the amp. Retuning requires a scope, signal generator, a little bit of knowledge, and patience.
Click to expand...

I'm still 16 at heart. It's hard not to want to put a thumping new cam, headers and glasspacs into every new thing I try.
 
ZOOM said:
If it sounds garbled when you turn it up, it means it is clipping. New iron won't change that, you need more power. I e a different amp. Better yet, though: get new speakers. Efficient ones.
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I'm stuck on the second two sentences here,"New iron won't change that, you need more power. I.e. A different amp."

In all seriousness, I'm always pondering what's coming next. And I'm a newb with only the amp in front of me to define what a tube amp can do. How do you get more power, what does it take to get there?

This is a real question that I'm really looking to find the answer.

If enough power is not something I can get out of this amp, what do I need to get there?
I have a 6v6 build in the pipeline. Can I build up a 6v6 that will provide enough power?
 
I was going to replace the OPT's on my 9303. But after listening to it after the rebuild I left the originals in place. You could add a powered subwoofer and use a filter on the Maggie amp. Say, 200hz and up through the Maggie and 200hz down through the powered sub.
 
it is reality.
power is dependent on voltage and current.
it is called ohms law and all electronics is governed by it.
LEARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then come back with questions.
 
Okay so Watts = Amps x Volts

So therefore to increase Power I need to increase the voltage or the amps being pushed through the output tubes? Yes?

Both of these are limited by the specs of the output tubes. So to get more power I need an amp with tubes that handle more B+ and current flow and a power supply that pushes more B+ and amps. Is this all correct?
 
ferninando said:
it is reality.
power is dependent on voltage and current.
it is called ohms law and all electronics is governed by it.
LEARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then come back with questions.
Click to expand...
Is it tears you want.

I learned ohms law in physics in college 25 years ago. The same place I learned differential equations. Without practical application it pretty much means nothing. As stated I only have the amp in front of me to learn from. Laws without practical application and realizing that you're actually applying them are pretty much useless. We all learn in different ways. I learn best by observing others doing things, applying what I learned and then asking pertinent questions. Without someone to observe I read as much as I can, ask questions as I come to them and then jump in.

What it takes to get an amp with more power is only indirectly a question about ohms law. Yes ohms law explains why the things you do will produce more power. I'm asking what those changes would be. I'm a blind kid playing with a 9304-20. I don't know what anything else sounds like. Or what components will produce better or more room filling sound. Like everyone I also am on a budget, so I ask questions looking for people with knowledge to tell me what I don't know so I don't spend money on things I think will improve performance but won't.

If your intent was not to smack me in the face for asking a question that is below you, please forgive my rant. You caught me at a bad minute.

My question was intended to illicit recommendations on what would be the next step up to provide me with an amp that will give me what I'm looking for.
Examples might be
- yes, a quad of 6v6s with ? Outputs will get you there.
-you really need to look to move up to an EL34 or 6L6 powered amp.
-try finding an Amp 175, I think it will give you what you're looking for.

Yes ohms law will tell me that power=volts x amps, and yes I can go hunting for tubes that will handle more volts and amps.
Or I can visit this forum and ask questions of people with technical and practical expertise on the subject.

Thanks for you time and sorry if your all caps and 30 exclamation points weren't meant to shut me up and put me in my place.
 
A pair of push pull EL84 tubes is good for about 12 to 15 watts (per channel). Ditto for 6V6.
A pair of 6L6/EL34 about 20 to 35 watts. Some designs offer up to about 45 watts with a pair of EL34s (CJ comes to mind)
A pair of KT88/6550 about 60 to 75 watts. Some designs offer up to about 90 watts with a pair of 6550s (Rogue comes to mind)

Other than that, you need to move into paralleling tubes or move into esoteric tube types that allow much higher plate voltage, neither of which are cheap or IMO easy. Several years ago I built (from scratch) a KT88 type amp that put out 60 watts per channel. It was an expensive endeavor and honestly while it sounded good, in fact really good, the lower wattage amps I have built sound better. To me there is something magical in that 20 to 30 watt per channel range, being reproduced from a good design using 6L6, EL34, or 7868/7591 type tubes.
 
I think you've gotten great info so far. I'm going to take it sideways a bit. You said you liked the sound at low volume but it breaks up when it gets loud. So you were looking for more power. Completely understandable. Have you considered very efficient speakers? Not my area of expertise but it would solve the volume issue. I would suspect synergy issues, though that wouldn't be different than voicing any other system. Just food for thought.
 
ferninando said:
BET IM OLDER THEN u
no HFs to be sure. who knows what any of us already knows.
surely not me.
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Hey, Fern, hope I can call you Fern after losing my **** over your comment,
I just want to apologize more formally to you. You walked into my bad week. After I left that text I called my Dr to tell him I wanted to stop taking the new medication he prescribed me last week. I'm having trouble controlling my blood sugar and the new meds I'm on have me straight up off the rails.
Hope we're good.

And just for the record, I definitely ask some dumb questions at times. I mean hell my signature is "newb xtraordinaire."
 
kward said:
A pair of push pull EL84 tubes is good for about 12 to 15 watts (per channel). Ditto for 6V6.
A pair of 6L6/EL34 about 20 to 35 watts. Some designs offer up to about 45 watts with a pair of EL34s (CJ comes to mind)
A pair of KT88/6550 about 60 to 75 watts. Some designs offer up to about 90 watts with a pair of 6550s (Rogue comes to mind)

Other than that, you need to move into paralleling tubes or move into esoteric tube types that allow much higher plate voltage, neither of which are cheap or IMO easy. Several years ago I built (from scratch) a KT88 type amp that put out 60 watts per channel. It was an expensive endeavor and honestly while it sounded good, in fact really good, the lower wattage amps I have built sound better. To me there is something magical in that 20 to 30 watt per channel range, being reproduced from a good design using 6L6, EL34, or 7868/7591 type tubes.
Click to expand...
Thanks,
So potentially I should be looking for a push pull design built around either the 6l6 or EL34 power tube.
 
Harlon said:
Hey, Fern, hope I can call you Fern after losing my **** over your comment,
I just want to apologize more formally to you. You walked into my bad week. After I left that text I called my Dr to tell him I wanted to stop taking the new medication he prescribed me last week. I'm having trouble controlling my blood sugar and the new meds I'm on have me straight up off the rails.
Hope we're good. And just for the record, I definitely ask some dumb questions at times. I mean hell my signature is "newb
xtraordinaire."



hay harlon, of course were good. didnt mean to set U off. sounds like U got the old ''type 2"" like me.
fern is fine and much better than way I mis-wrote and to late entered it and coldnt change it.
ferninando is awful IMO but the admins dont like changing usrenames so there it is.
I gotta live with it.
Hope you get all your 9304 issues squared away. I have a 9303 I will never part with. it just sounds sooo sweet to my ears
on myTekton Lore2s
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Thanks,
Yeah I'm type two. Whenever I let my weight creep up over 200 my sugar goes to hell. 185 I'm golden, 195 I'm fine, 205 and my body just crashes. Doc gave me samples of Farxiga. Sugars is down but I've been on it about 10 days now and I feel straight up bat **** crazy.

I've still got to finish my rebuild of the tuner and MPX, but I'm going to stick with the stock trannies and spend my money on better coupling caps and parts for the 6v6 VM I picked up.

I'm still tinkering with running a cathode bypass cap on the AF Amp section of the phase splitter tubes. It sounds excellent, gives that little bit of extra separation and clarity, but when there's no signal I'm still getting a little bit of crackle and squeal. Don't know if finishing the refurb will clean that up or I'm going to have to be satisfied without the bypass caps.

Any opinions on mid range, under $20 a piece, coupling caps. I'd like to spend less than $50 for the .1s and .047s. I've got new 716Ps in there now. I'm not opposed to keeping them, but wouldn't mind going up a notch or two if it will improve the sound that much more. I just saved $120 bucks on trannies so I've got some renewed flexibility.

Thanks as always for the knowledge.
 
Harlon said:
Thanks,
So potentially I should be looking for a push pull design built around either the 6l6 or EL34 power tube.
Click to expand...

Or.......IMVHO maybe PP 7591s or 7868s, with the first being first choice. The 7591 is a tube that was designed from the beginning for HiFi use in that power range. If for some reason you did go with that tube, I'd insist on fixed (adjustable per tube) bias and NOS westinghouse tubes. If not NOS, good testing pulls from a trusted source. A Fisher X200, or KX200 (kit version), fits this bill very nicely and has a bias AND balance meter that works well made right in the chassis towards the back. It also has the biggest lamination stack in the OPTs of any Fisher 7591 unit that I know, just a hair larger than the famed 500 receiver. With a little work, including getting rid of the center channel garbage and 3 miles of wire that goes with it, it can be an azz kicker for rock, a great Jazz piece, or just about whatever you want. Great phono stage as well, in fine Fisher tradition.


If you look quick you can see the bias/balance meter there in the back on top of the chassis (around 150). Mine works near perfect, I checked t against a real meter.
 
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