Have been reading about blind listening tests conducted by Alan Shaw of Harbeth Loudspeakers. He concluded that different amplifiers working correctly within specified limits and set at identical volumes sounded exactly the same. An amplifiers job is basically to increase the gain of a source signal so his argument sounds logical. I cant believe though that my old Amstrad music centre from the 80,s sounds the same as my separate gear. Surely things like distortion, noise, quality of the DC feed and interference are all factors in the sound quality of an amplifier. I cant believe that any differences to be heard are all in your imagination.
Do all amplifiers sound identical?
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whoaru99
Epic Member
Here ya go (follow link below). That should give a good, fresh overview of the current board sentiment considering it's basically the same topic from just a short time ago.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=675962
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=675962
Sprags
Well-Known Member
Even though I claim to know different brands sound different for all practical purposes components with close to the same specs from the same era sound close to the same.
As an example I don't think it's really fair to compare a 1970's era Yamaha receiver to a 2010 era Yamaha receiver. The electronics circuitry is different enough to make a big change in sound. Though I bet some may say even those two would sound the same as well
Nowadays it seems we are supposed to believe an MP3 being played through an iPod and then processed through a docking station and a cheap little class d amp and output through those cheap Bose speakers sounds as good as it will ever be.
As an example I don't think it's really fair to compare a 1970's era Yamaha receiver to a 2010 era Yamaha receiver. The electronics circuitry is different enough to make a big change in sound. Though I bet some may say even those two would sound the same as well
Nowadays it seems we are supposed to believe an MP3 being played through an iPod and then processed through a docking station and a cheap little class d amp and output through those cheap Bose speakers sounds as good as it will ever be.
Haha. Sorry. This topic has obviously been discussed to death
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328230
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39317
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=647684
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=675962 the one linked above.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=535070
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=574727
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=591202
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=635819
Obviously this critical topic is brought up regularly on AK and can get into a heated argument. these are some of the past threads on this issue and a few have been closed, most have multiple pages of replies.
I'll go on record, amps sound different and just leave it at that.
Read through those pages and give us a short answer if there is one on what all those posts add up to on this issue.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39317
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=647684
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=675962 the one linked above.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=535070
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=574727
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=591202
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=635819
Obviously this critical topic is brought up regularly on AK and can get into a heated argument. these are some of the past threads on this issue and a few have been closed, most have multiple pages of replies.
I'll go on record, amps sound different and just leave it at that.
Read through those pages and give us a short answer if there is one on what all those posts add up to on this issue.
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
Interesting that he of all people would even weigh in on the topic. I think a survey of Harbeth owners' opinions on the issue would be interesting.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Why only Harbeth owners?
Exactly! The answer is: No, they don't. Same era, same brand, same speakers, etc. Every amp sounds different, every speaker sounds different....
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
Since the comment came from Harbeth's Shaw... and the Harbeth speakers sound superb, and I suspect not all Harbeth owners have the same amplifiers.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Wouldn't that apply to the owners of most any speaker?
Well here you go. I've owned a pair of Mr.Shaws' P3ESRs for a few years.
They have been powered by the following:
ML No.27.5 100 Watt
Counterpoint SA-12 60 Watt
Bryston 3B 100 Watt
They sound outstanding with all of them. Definitely different. The Levinson delivers tight bass effortlessly. The Counterpoint presents a sound stage as wide as the room. The Bryston sounds nice at thirty plus years old.
All exhibit a dead quiet background. They sound real good with my Fisher 400 receiver,also.
I never bought into Alan's take on amplifiers.
Happy listening.
Jimmy
Superampman
AK Member
No no, "I" say amps sound different and just leave it at that! Nuff said, end of discussion.
Renegade
Well-Known Member
but,,,, you can't say they don't either,,,,,,
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
Kind of what I would have expected. Wonder what you're hearing that the fellow responsible for the loudspeakers doesn't? Also, kind of wonder (psychoacoustically), why?
Not really tractable questions, but interesting questions.
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
Actually, I'd posit that this one doesn't ["sound the same"]. This one is very interesting, as one variable has been entirely eliminated. We're only talking about one flavor of loudspeaker design. I am assuming that all Harbeth products share a design philosophy and approach (which 1) I believe that they do and 2) an approach that I believe descends from the BBC LS-3/5A monitor specification).
The guy responsible for them says "all amplifiers sound the same". He, presumably has some experience and data (at least subjective) to substantiate his claim.
Someone else has the same speakers, different amplifiers, and draws a different conclusion.
Now, obviously, there are many, many variables --- but there is also one very significant constant: the electromechanical transducers themselves. A very key link in the chain.
The answer is, I'd opine, actually quite simple to "all amps sound the same". All amps may sound the same when delivering signal to a completely nonreactive load (i.e., with an entirely invariant impedance curve as a function of frequency). Any loudspeaker deviating from such will interact with the amplifier supplying it with signal. This is Ohm's Law stuff (the AC variant, but, still...). Current, power, resistance, capacative reactance and inductive reactance are all inter-related.
As a side-note, Magneplanars (the panels therein, at least) do themselves present a remarkably nonreactive, almost pure resistive load to an amplifier. In theory, they should be less amplifier dependent than normal electrodynamic driver loudspeakers... but most of htem are so danged insensitive that it's kind of hard to tell
Let's look at a couple of loudspeaker impedance curves, courtesy of our friends at Stereophile (one of the few publications any more that still goes to the effort of measuring the performance of the things they test).
Harbeth Super HL-5 Plus
http://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker#vEMkPKz534RjVLOL.97
Fig.1 Harbeth Super HL5plus, electrical impedance (solid) and phase (dashed) (2 ohms/vertical div.).
Magnepan Magneplanar MG1.6/QR
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...-loudspeaker-measurements#z93izue5f3phCY1S.97
Fig.1 Magnepan MG1.6/QR, electrical impedance (solid) and phase (dashed) (2 ohms/vertical div.).
The midrange weirdness, AFAIK, arises from the crossover network. To quote Stereophile:
also...
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