Do different vendor crossover caps really sound all that different?
- Thread starter Fred DuBuron
- Start date
I have an RTA that is far more sensitive than my ears. If I can see a difference for the better (e.g., 1 or 2 tenths of a dB smoother at a specific frequency(s)) on the RTA, but don't necessarily hear it, I'll default to the RTA every time.Being able to tell the difference means there is an actual difference. An example how do you know your system sounds good compared to a transistor radio, maybe you are hearing what you expect to hear or other factors?Or because you can clearly hear the differences with your ears? Its like you are saying that one cannot hear "SUBTLE" differences. Again how do you know if your system sounds good? You would of had to have something to compare it to, to notice the DIFFERENCES of why your system sounds better then another system.
The reason there are many comments like mine is because that is the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY to know if there is a difference in sound is with our EARS. We are living in an age where one thinks science trumps our senses and or in which our senses are actually tricking us into believing something is there or not there. Can our senses be tricked? Sure but most of the times are senses are spot on as this is one of the main survival instincts of any creature. If our senses could be tricked majority of the time that species would be extinct by now. lol
Audiophiles, DIYers , Engineers, well known companies all judge the sound with there EARS. I've never heard anyone ever say that one does not need to hear it because it looks good on paper.
Comedy sketch> An Audiophile walks into an Audio store and asks the salesman where are all the speakers as I want to hear a demo and the sales man says oh now days we dont demo speakers anymore as people now buy speakers based only on specs because we cant trust our own ears. LMAOROTF
Sure I understand, but since you cant hear it in the first place would it really matter? Which is why in my first post I said if you cant tell the difference between capacitors then all you need is the cheapest cap available. Why spend more money and or time on something that wont make a difference?
Yes, because I may hear it in the "second" place.
Do you think that every tune that you listen too has every frequency that you may ever be able to hear at sometime in the future just because you've not heard it in what you've already auditioned?
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
I think you entirely missed my point above.....
I never said I did not hear any difference between caps, but that I found NO actual definitive proof there was.
Many pros and engineers freely admit they think and found next to no difference irrespective of price.
You are stating your position as if it a "Given" and is not arguable at all.
My scenario, I actually found decent differences between caps when doing some experimenting several years ago, but.......
When a few months later I tried doing this again, and did not know which was being used, I no longer had the same ability to tell which was which.
That brings into question the whole idea, that what made me believe originally I did for sure think I heard differences, but they vanished upon a later comparison when NOT aware of which was which??
(Same system, same ears, same music, only change was not knowing)
My entire point, is why is there NO DEFINITIVE answer to this. Could it simply be expectation as I assume my case most likely turned out to be?
You contradict yourself in the first sentence. The proof is that you heard it.
The fact that there are literally millions of people who can hear a difference only prove there is a difference.
It is a given its not arguable at all for the mere fact that millions of people world wide can hear a difference.
You admitted it.
How do you know your ears were the same? Aging, mental health, sickness like ear infection or even a virus can alter our hearing perceptions.
So when you hear it, it counts, and when you don't, it doesn't?
We think we perceive things that turn out not to be real all the time. You see someone far away, and it turns out to be a tree. Out in the woods, you smell the scent of an old girlfriend and are astonished that she is not there, despite the implausibility of her being so. You hear robbers in the night. You feel a phantom limb - this one I haven't actually felt, the others I certainly have.
Your ability to find counter arguments seems to only be there when the poster doesn't hear the differences - Aging, mental health, sickness like ear infection or even a virus can alter our hearing perceptions when we hear things, too.
We think we perceive things that turn out not to be real all the time. You see someone far away, and it turns out to be a tree. Out in the woods, you smell the scent of an old girlfriend and are astonished that she is not there, despite the implausibility of her being so. You hear robbers in the night. You feel a phantom limb - this one I haven't actually felt, the others I certainly have.
Your ability to find counter arguments seems to only be there when the poster doesn't hear the differences - Aging, mental health, sickness like ear infection or even a virus can alter our hearing perceptions when we hear things, too.
I assume this is a reply to me?
Kevin said he heard a difference several years ago. Then a few months ago which most likely means most recently he couldnt tell the difference. The most logical explanation is something changed his hearing.
You cant UNHEAR what you've never heard before which means something has changed within his hearing for him to not hear what he heard before.
gslikker
Super Member
No, it only counts when you oppose certain opinions then your hearing is compromised., but if agreeing, your hearing loss is compensated by "more listening experience".
Now, as a tech, I am not looking at "brands" so I normally not go the audio supplier route for electronic parts.
But looking at the prices in the pictures OP presented, those audio brands are not that more expensive than industrial caps, if more expensive, at all.
I would not try to save a few cents, compared to the effort of taking apart speakers and update filters, and just buy quality caps you feel comfortable with.
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kevintomb
Well-Known Member
I will reply to this one last time. I think the whole thing is getting a tad too much back and forth though.
I did this a few years back, trying different caps, on a tweeter circuit, which was breadboarded for ease of changing components, before final soldering.
When I tried different caps, (5-6) in total, I DID for sure think I heard changes between the various caps, and even looked up how some were received and what others said about them.
I knew I had another DIY friend that would scoop up any un-soldered caps I did not use, so there was no loss at all in money doing this.
Months later just for fun, before unloading all the caps to re-coop my funds, I had my daughter (teen) try changing them out on the breadboard ONE last time, before soldering things in place. I had the idea of her doing it and NOT telling me which one she placed in the circuit, and tried my listening and found, I was nearly dumbfounded and had no idea which was which.
We were not even doing this with the intention OF doing a blind test, but just forced her into helping me, cause it was a lot of effort to do it alone, and get up and down and so on.
The changes I assumed I had heard originally, were not only mostly gone, but I had no idea which was which at this point. Just a few months ago when I painstakingly auditioned a handful, SIGHT SEEN, I thought I really did hear changes from one to another, even thought I am not one to usually believe there is much difference truth be told.
All this little exercise showed me, was that I am now never "So certain" about what I hear, or think I hear, or assume I hear. IT does not prove anything for sure one way or the other, but I think some humility it needed when believing one is SO CERTAIN about their beliefs and perceptions. Thats it.
This will be my last attempt to try and understand what you are saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself with your own words.
You use words like mostly gone. Its either there or its not, which is it? If you can still hear it even if its very subtle it means there is a difference. This is not rocket science.
So are you saying the first time wasnt a proper blind test but the second time with your daughter was more like a blind test?
Now if you are telling me you do hear subtle differences but you cant identify which of those subtle differences belong to which capacitor then thats perfectly normal but it does not deter the fact that you heard a subtle difference. Unless one knows the sound signature of each different capacitor you wont be able to identify which one is playing but you will notice that there is a difference in sound.
Its a very similar test when you go to the doctor for a hearing test. If you pass the test with flying colors the Doc will tell you have perfect hearing. Then a few years later when you take the test again and this time the doctor says you dont have perfect hearing like you did when you came last time. Are you going to QUESTION the doctor and say it does not prove anything for sure one way or the other and its just the doctors beliefs and perception? 
What you actually can or cannot hear in a blind test is the proof as the test results dont lie.
You use words like mostly gone. Its either there or its not, which is it? If you can still hear it even if its very subtle it means there is a difference. This is not rocket science.
So are you saying the first time wasnt a proper blind test but the second time with your daughter was more like a blind test?
Now if you are telling me you do hear subtle differences but you cant identify which of those subtle differences belong to which capacitor then thats perfectly normal but it does not deter the fact that you heard a subtle difference. Unless one knows the sound signature of each different capacitor you wont be able to identify which one is playing but you will notice that there is a difference in sound.
Its a very similar test when you go to the doctor for a hearing test. If you pass the test with flying colors the Doc will tell you have perfect hearing. Then a few years later when you take the test again and this time the doctor says you dont have perfect hearing like you did when you came last time. Are you going to QUESTION the doctor and say it does not prove anything for sure one way or the other and its just the doctors beliefs and perception?
What you actually can or cannot hear in a blind test is the proof as the test results dont lie.
Hearing a difference or thinking that you do may be proof of something, but it isn't a proof of reliable and consistent audibility - it is suggestive, but unless repeatable, isn't conclusive. And it is certainly not the same as identifying better or worse, and, I assume, that is the issue here. If I hear a difference (and it isn't just that there was a pop or brief silence when the switch was thrown, and thus a change was noticed), and that difference is consistently identified correctly, then the question becomes which sound was better. And that is highly subjective, and highly dependent on the specific recording and system. And it is well understood that, in comparisons, if there is any difference in volume, we tend to favor the louder one, and likely the brighter one. So a lower ESR is likely to be favored, which tilts the field toward film caps over electrolytics, regardless of what the original voicing was. Original voicing isn't necessarily important, but if the speakers were voiced to sound natural by someone who knew what unamplified music sounds like, they may sound dull to someone who is judging by a different standard, and so film caps will always sound better to them, regardless of whether the original caps were in perfect shape and the speakers sounded the way they were supposed to.
I don't have any problem with people doing anything they want with their speakers and enjoying the results, but I do question whether every change has to be accepted as a universal improvement. And being cheap, I don't want to buy expensive caps unless I actually think they are justified. And this isn't just are they better, but is the added expense justified with the specific speaker involved - I'm not interested in spending more than the value of the speakers to make them sound slightly better - I'd rather get better speakers.
I don't have any problem with people doing anything they want with their speakers and enjoying the results, but I do question whether every change has to be accepted as a universal improvement. And being cheap, I don't want to buy expensive caps unless I actually think they are justified. And this isn't just are they better, but is the added expense justified with the specific speaker involved - I'm not interested in spending more than the value of the speakers to make them sound slightly better - I'd rather get better speakers.
Doing a blind test is proof of a reliable and consistent audibility, its also repeatable. as many people have done it world wide . The same way having your hearing checked/tested by a doctor is proof about the conditions of ones hearing.
Which one is better is SUBJECTIVE and based solely on personal preference. The question is do capacitors sound DIFFERENT, its not really about which ones sound better as its based on many factors and not just the capacitor alone.
When doing any blind test comparisons everything should be as equal as possible meaning volume matching is a must.
Your original voicing theory only further proves that there are DIFFERENCES.
I highly doubt anyone is saying the change has to be accepted as a universal improvement. What we are saying is there are DIFFERENCES thats it.
No one is telling you what you can or cant do with your own system as its all up to you. If you feel they are not worth it dont buy them its really that simple.
I also feel that the higher end/priced caps are not justified/worth it. Like I said in my first post a lot of times it depends on the application and design and not just the capacitor alone. Sound is also subjective so its all personal preference of which one sounds best to you. Pick the one that sounds best to you within your standards/limits.
Which one is better is SUBJECTIVE and based solely on personal preference. The question is do capacitors sound DIFFERENT, its not really about which ones sound better as its based on many factors and not just the capacitor alone.
When doing any blind test comparisons everything should be as equal as possible meaning volume matching is a must.
Your original voicing theory only further proves that there are DIFFERENCES.
I highly doubt anyone is saying the change has to be accepted as a universal improvement. What we are saying is there are DIFFERENCES thats it.
No one is telling you what you can or cant do with your own system as its all up to you. If you feel they are not worth it dont buy them its really that simple.
I also feel that the higher end/priced caps are not justified/worth it. Like I said in my first post a lot of times it depends on the application and design and not just the capacitor alone. Sound is also subjective so its all personal preference of which one sounds best to you. Pick the one that sounds best to you within your standards/limits.
What if the difference amounts to a difference in volume, and you've just "zeroed" out the difference?
You miss the point.
Say you try two different caps in the crossover, using one at a time, and one is just a couple tenths of a dB louder, so now the tweeter is just a bit brigher than it was relative to the other drivers at any volume level and this would be due to the cap. Or perhaps it's a parallel cap and shunts a couple tenths of a dB more to ground dulling out the midrange.
You may not even recognize these differences unless you instantaneously A/B the two caps, which of course I would do.
No, its you who missed my point. What do you think "VOLUME MATCHING" is about?
You can't volume match for a different slope without changing something else. What if the 0.2 dB loss only occurs over a certain range of frequencies? If you boost this back up, you would also increase other portions of the band by this amount, even those that are already too much where you don't want the change. And, many crossovers do not even include an L-pad to adjust volume.
And lest you think you can't hear a change of just 0.2 dB over a specific frequency band, refer to those that can.