Do different vendor crossover caps really sound all that different?

[flavio81]

Recognize that Stereophile Magazine only gave the JBL 4367 a "B" rating.

That is meaningless. It can get a "B" rating for various reasons.

And, even if you would fit the best capacitors there on the JBL 4367, that's no guarantee that the Stereophile guys would rate it better.

I value subjective reviews but reducing all a review into an "a, b, or c" tier is ridiculous.

 

[gslikker]

That is meaningless. It can get a "B" rating for various reasons.

And, even if you would fit the best capacitors there on the JBL 4367, that's no guarantee that the Stereophile guys would rate it better.

I value subjective reviews but reducing all a review into an "a, b, or c" tier is ridiculous.

Although I believe you are right, the very same applies to this very topic, isn't it?

People want to rate capacitors on brand name and boutiqueness, is what it is, and many times invalid reasons without any valid quantifications are used.

just my opinion

 

[odcics2]

To each their own...

 

[RVT1K]

That is meaningless. It can get a "B" rating for various reasons.

And, even if you would fit the best capacitors there on the JBL 4367, that's no guarantee that the Stereophile guys would rate it better.

I value subjective reviews but reducing all a review into an "a, b, or c" tier is ridiculous.

I understand what you are saying but there has to be some way to differentiate one review from another. A number grade would be more "precise" but, as you pointed out, points can be lost anywhere.

Personally I am far more interested in the technical aspects of a review rather than an opinion on sound which is very subjective and personal.

 

[HPMguy]

The last detailed "review" of this subject I read (and I cannot remember where now, alas) found that the only real differences between the majority of brands of film caps was the exact capacitance value. Capacitors in cross-overs are filter caps, and even minor changes can shift what frequencies are produced on a given driver. The only other thing that changed the signal (as detected by a research grade microphone in a fixed position on a single speaker) was ESR in circuit, where variations led to minor changes in balance between drivers.

Even then differences were less than 0.3dB except in the cases where the caps were defective (old electrolytics) or way off value. No one can hear a 0.3dB difference, let alone less than that.

And so to my mind that really means use decent caps and use the L-pads on the speakers to 'tune" them in. After all, they are there for just that reason, and it annoys me endlessly when someone carps about a "mid forward" speaker and has never tried adjusting the controls on the speaker to match their room. Ditto for not using tone controls except to boost the bass to ear destroying levels.

I sometimes wish I was using my Dad's old Utah speakers for modern "music" with grossly over-recorded bass. At least those old speakers wouldn't produce anything under 50Hz so my windows wouldn't be vibrating...

 

[Capitol C]

Thanks..
I know the distinctions .. and the definition's enable the discussion .. "pass the signal unaltered"
Probably not a good thing for me to be tossing indiscriminately in to the middle of a good discussion ..

But given sufficient voltage everything's a semiconductor .. as in a "partial" conductor .. that's what the cap is doing ..
The "insulator" in the cap is conducting, but by design it's altering the signal.

Oh, please. When an insulator breaks down it is not a semiconductor. And metals are not semiconductors. The distinctions are clear in the textbooks I've used. When you goof admit it.

 

[toddalin]

I understand what you are saying but there has to be some way to differentiate one review from another. A number grade would be more "precise" but, as you pointed out, points can be lost anywhere.

Personally I am far more interested in the technical aspects of a review rather than an opinion on sound which is very subjective and personal.

Then you can read the issue in which they reviewed the speaker and see the measurements on it. I'm assuming that some haven't or would know why it only gets a "B" rating. The ratings are a combination of the measured parameters and the reviewers' take/comments. These guys have listened to far more QUALITY speakers of different design and manufacturer then any of us probably ever will, so they know what to listen for. If you read the magazine regularly, you get a feel for each reviewer's overall preferences and why.

"My first three weeks of listening to the JBLs were pretty miserable. They sounded rhythmically disjointed, grayish, soft, bass shy, and so incapable of creating a soundstage that I at first thought I had connected them out of phase. This confused me, because the Harman rep had informed me that these were demo units, presumably with many hours of use. Yet, after about 200 hours of play, the 4367s had improved dramatically, and after 300 they began to sound great. I later learned that the pair I received had only a few hours on them. Mystery solved."

There have been lots of reviews of "new" speakers that have yet to break-in and while they also reported improvement, I had never seen a "new" speaker so criticized before break-in.

Maybe "great" is not as "great" as the "A" listers. He never does come back to talk about the "positives" other than "jump factor" which was his first impression. And as we know, "speaker break-in" may be as much about "listener habituation" to a certain sound.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker

 

[Nat]

While I used to like Stereophile back when in was the only subjective magazine around (and relatively modest in their claims to superior knowledge), at some point The Absolute Sound 's success at bloviation seems to have become contagious, and the reviews started to sound like this one quoted.
'Mystery solved' - Please! Obviously, the rep eventually told the reviewer what he wanted to hear, taking back the original claim that the speakers had been broken in, and giving the reviewer cover for what was likely really going on, which is simply that the reviewer had gotten used to the sound of the speakers. JBL is a big company, and not beholden to the subjective press, even before they were taken over by Harmon. So golden ears tend to complain about them, even if they have to acknowledge that the top JBLs are exceedingly capable.

 

[flavio81]

I understand what you are saying but there has to be some way to differentiate one review from another. A number grade would be more "precise" but, as you pointed out, points can be lost anywhere.

Personally I am far more interested in the technical aspects of a review rather than an opinion on sound which is very subjective and personal.

Yes. I also read stereophile for the "Measurements" section however I do find the subjective impressions very important. As important, or even more, than the measurements.

However, a lengthy, detailed subjective review, where you will consider things like imaging, bass response, tonal balance, smoothness of midrange, dynamics or realism, smoothness of highs, ability to play at loud levels, etcetera, is VERY different to just saying "this speaker is grade B" or "C" or whatever. Very different.

I don't think that you can reduce the many parameters that make a speaker a good speaker into A/B/C tiers. In my opinion, it's unethical. What if I only value dynamics and low distortion at highlevels and I don't care too much for soundstaging, imaging, or the response perhaps not being absolutely neutral? A speaker that the reviewer considers "C" can be "A" to me, for example.

What if one has a deluxe small 2-way speaker with amazing transparency and neutrality of the midrange, however absolutely limited in bass extension and loud
ness? Maybe it gets an "A" for the Stereophile reviewer, and maybe for me it would be a "B".

Reducing many orthogonal dimensions to a single letter is silly.

"My first three weeks of listening to the JBLs were pretty miserable. They sounded rhythmically disjointed, grayish, soft, bass shy, and so incapable of creating a soundstage that I at first thought I had connected them out of phase. This confused me, because the Harman rep had informed me that these were demo units, presumably with many hours of use. Yet, after about 200 hours of play, the 4367s had improved dramatically, and after 300 they began to sound great. I later learned that the pair I received had only a few hours on them. Mystery solved."

A speaker with a 15" woofer and bass reflex alignment can never be "bass shy". Hell, even a 8" 2-way with bass reflex, designed in the last 20 years, will have plenty of bass. It is obvious that the cone compliance needed a break-in. Temperature and humidity and/of storage conditions will also play a factor. This is not an illusion, some speaker builders in the DIY community prefer to "exercise" a driver for some hours before measuring the impedance curves (and Thiele-Small parameters) on them.

And any speaker where bass is insufficient will sound with way-too-forward mids; not pleasant to the ear in any way.

 

[NW1]

If you really wanna do some research into the subtle differences in caps- http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I've perused that webpage in the past. At a certain point, miniscule perceived difference may be more attributable to factors such as mood, a head cold, moon phase, relative humidity and who the Cardinals opening pitcher will be on the fifth home game next season.

 

[gslikker]

I've perused that webpage in the past. At a certain point, miniscule perceived difference may be more attributable to factors such as mood, a head cold, moon phase, relative humidity and who the Cardinals opening pitcher will be on the fifth home game next season.

Yeah, it explains how the caps sound, regardless of the loudspeaker they are put in.
Imagine the enormous amount of tests one would have to do to get the amount of "data".
Next question would be, do you really have to solder the caps in or is just putting a bag of such caps in the speaker sufficient?

 

[egellings]

This weekend I found a single orphaned AR-28S for an astoundingly low price of $8.99 at a local Thrift Store.
I almost cried...
so I am eager to hear this critter sing... and hopefully, find it a twin sibling at some point
New surrounds are on order...

As far as the cross-over is concerned...

For my usual speaker reconditioning projects... I would usually use the Dayton 1% caps (marked in green) and have been happy with the overall sound on my other projects. I am curious as to how the caps vary from vendor to vendor and would like to see if they have any effect on softening the sound stage a tad.

Here are the options to land on the 8.0uF crossover cap using two wired in parallel ...
Which do you prefer? (AUDYN, DAYTON, JANTZEN,or SOLEN)
I do not want to spend more than $12.00 per speaker so for this exercise I am avoiding the big $$$ Caps

Wow! a true "air suspension" woofer.

 

[toddalin]

A speaker with a 15" woofer and bass reflex alignment can never be "bass shy". Hell, even a 8" 2-way with bass reflex, designed in the last 20 years, will have plenty of bass. It is obvious that the cone compliance needed a break-in. Temperature and humidity and/of storage conditions will also play a factor. This is not an illusion, some speaker builders in the DIY community prefer to "exercise" a driver for some hours before measuring the impedance curves (and Thiele-Small parameters) on them.

And any speaker where bass is insufficient will sound with way-too-forward mids; not pleasant to the ear in any way.

You are wrong. Ever listen to a D130/075 combo? Even a 130A/LE175 would register as a "small" speaker when my Yamaha goes throth it's YPAO. And yet there are plenty of people who enjoy the D130/075 combo for the upper bass/lower mids.

 

[flavio81]

You are wrong. Ever listen to a D130/075 combo?

I said "designed in the last 20 years"...

 

[toddalin]

I said "designed in the last 20 years"...

Actually, not to split hairs, you said 8" 2-ways designed in the last 20 years.

 

[DMLBES]

Before I went into DIY I use to believe different caps made no difference at all, boy was I totally wrong.
'
The only way to know is to listen for yourself. If you cant tell the difference then stick with cheapest cap available.

1.Different brands of caps will have different sound signatures including caps within the same brand but of a different type/series.

2.The way a cap sounds can also be determined by ones application and design.

3.Also the more revealing ones speakers are the more you will hear the differences of the capacitors.

 

[kevintomb]

Before I went into DIY I use to believe different caps made no difference at all, boy was I totally wrong.
'
The only way to know is to listen for yourself. If you cant tell the difference then stick with cheapest cap available.

1.Different brands of caps will have different sound signatures including caps within the same brand but of a different type/series.

2.The way a cap sounds can also be determined by ones application and design.

3.Also the more revealing ones speakers are the more you will hear the differences of the capacitors.

This is NOT about being able to tell the difference, it is about whether there IS an actual difference to be heard, or instead people may be hearing what they expect to hear, or other factors.

I have scoured the internet, and yes I find many comments like yours, and I ALSO find many more comments completely contradicting what you say, coming from all types of people, including many DIY guys like myself and many Actual speaker "Engineers" that work for well known companies.

 

[kevintomb]

@Fred DuBuron I applaud your effort, and look forward to the results. I certainly drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to caps having an influence on sound. I would highly recommend building a capacitor break in station, to give all your caps a good "run in" before comparing. Depending on the cap construction and materials, it might take 100-200 hours or more to "settle in". This is much easier to accomplish with a cap break in station. I found the design for my station here on AK. A search should track it down. Once you have that done, I would recommend putting the crossover outside the cabinet, and adding alligator clips to each cap so you can quickly swap them back and forth. That way you can listen to a track, swap the cap, and immediately listen to it again. I've wanted to do this for a long time.



@kevintomb I have spent way too much time combing through that list trying to find the "diamond in the rough" capacitor. I appreciate the effort put into that massive document, and I think it's a reasonable place to start your cap selection journey, but in the end synergy always wins. I can't even begin to imagine the effort it would take to break all those caps in, test them in a blind setting, and record all the sonic impressions.

I mean, what more effort would it truly take?

He compared them, KNOWING which one was playing. Why not simply compare them randomly or without knowledge of which is which?

Have a 2nd person, simply place the caps in the circuit the way he did, but where he is not aware of which one.
I would find that FAR FAR FAR more meaningful. and it would also remove the bias of knowing the price/brand.

Now that I could entirely get behind.!++

 

[fredgarvin]

Before I went into DIY I use to believe different caps made no difference at all, boy was I totally wrong.
'
The only way to know is to listen for yourself. If you cant tell the difference then stick with cheapest cap available.

1.Different brands of caps will have different sound signatures including caps within the same brand but of a different type/series.

2.The way a cap sounds can also be determined by ones application and design.

3.Also the more revealing ones speakers are the more you will hear the differences of the capacitors.

Well said, and still true.

 

[DMLBES]

This is NOT about being able to tell the difference, it is about whether there IS an actual difference to be heard, or instead people may be hearing what they expect to hear, or other factors.

I have scoured the internet, and yes I find many comments like yours, and I ALSO find many more comments completely contradicting what you say, coming from all types of people, including many DIY guys like myself and many Actual speaker "Engineers" that work for well known companies.

Being able to tell the difference means there is an actual difference. An example how do you know your system sounds good compared to a transistor radio, maybe you are hearing what you expect to hear or other factors? Or because you can clearly hear the differences with your ears? Its like you are saying that one cannot hear "SUBTLE" differences. Again how do you know if your system sounds good? You would of had to have something to compare it to, to notice the DIFFERENCES of why your system sounds better then another system.

The reason there are many comments like mine is because that is the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY to know if there is a difference in sound is with our EARS. We are living in an age where one thinks science trumps our senses and or in which our senses are actually tricking us into believing something is there or not there. Can our senses be tricked? Sure but most of the times are senses are spot on as this is one of the main survival instincts of any creature. If our senses could be tricked majority of the time that species would be extinct by now. lol

Audiophiles, DIYers , Engineers, well known companies all judge the sound with there EARS. I've never heard anyone ever say that one does not need to hear it because it looks good on paper.

Comedy sketch> An Audiophile walks into an Audio store and asks the salesman where are all the speakers as I want to hear a demo and the sales man says oh now days we dont demo speakers anymore as people now buy speakers based only on specs because we cant trust our own ears. LMAOROTF