Do different vendor crossover caps really sound all that different?

[Nat]

"VOLUME MATCHING" is not always as straightforward as we might like. If ESR is the issue, do you match to the slightly louder high frequencies or to the original level of the rest of the frequency change - either way the total frequency output isn't matched. And, of course, you have two speakers, and unless you happen to listen in an anechoic chamber, the necessarily different location of the two speakers will have an some effect on in room response, so then you are matching to different frequency responses that have nothing to do with the cap question.
I'm not just trying to be annoying or pedantic - if the claim is made that the audibility of differences is easily demonstrable, more thought has to be put into what is believed to have been heard, and the interpretation of what is believed to have been heard.
I have thought I heard things when, with more careful listening, I couldn't hear them again, and I have misinterpreted what I've heard many, many, times. I suspect most of us have built elaborate explanations of something we thought we heard, only to find out that we have the speakers out of phase, or some similar boneheaded oversight.

 

[toddalin]

No, its you who missed my point. What do you think "VOLUME MATCHING" is about?

These have been volume matched to within 0.2 dB. Can you not hear a difference in the highs? In this case one is solid state and the other is tubes. But the concept is the same.

 

[DMLBES]

These have been volume matched to within 0.2 dB. Can you not hear a difference in the highs? In this case one is solid state and the other is tubes. But the concept is the same.

No that is totally wrong. Thats two different systems. You cannot compare caps from two different systems. Comparing caps can only be done on the SAME SYSTEM.

 

[DMLBES]

"VOLUME MATCHING" is not always as straightforward as we might like. If ESR is the issue, do you match to the slightly louder high frequencies or to the original level of the rest of the frequency change - either way the total frequency output isn't matched. And, of course, you have two speakers, and unless you happen to listen in an anechoic chamber, the necessarily different location of the two speakers will have an some effect on in room response, so then you are matching to different frequency responses that have nothing to do with the cap question.
I'm not just trying to be annoying or pedantic - if the claim is made that the audibility of differences is easily demonstrable, more thought has to be put into what is believed to have been heard, and the interpretation of what is believed to have been heard.
I have thought I heard things when, with more careful listening, I couldn't hear them again, and I have misinterpreted what I've heard many, many, times. I suspect most of us have built elaborate explanations of something we thought we heard, only to find out that we have the speakers out of phase, or some similar boneheaded oversight.

Its not the claim , its the test results. A blind test is very similar to the way one does a scientific test/experiment. If a person can get 100% correct on a test it only proves that person is not guessing and can actually hear a difference.

We also have to take into account that our senses over time deteriorates due to aging or illness. This is why a lot of senior citizens need to wear glasses and hearing aids.

 

[toddalin]

Its not the claim , its the test results. A blind test is very similar to the way one does a scientific test/experiment. If a person can get 100% correct on a test it only proves that person is not guessing and can actually hear a difference.

We also have to take into account that our senses over time deteriorates due to aging or illness. This is why a lot of senior citizens need to wear glasses and hearing aids.

That's fine, and what we advocate. But the ear has a terrible memory and those differences are often only audible with instantaneous A/B testing. I have a switch that let's me try different combinations, A/B, in real time. Of course you can pause on whichever you like for any length of time.

When auditioning caps for the ground shunt on the midrange, I was switching between 9.5 and 10.0 mfd. The difference is extremely subtle, but in some instances the larger value let the speaker roll off just that much sooner and created less "congestion" with the Heil, which is out of phase with the mid through this portion of the band. Other than instaneously A/B-ing the two caps, there would be no way to make this distinction.

And you missed ths point of the videos. They demonstrate that two systems can be at the same volume, but if the frequency bands are not the same, for whatever reason, they won't sound the same.

 

[DMLBES]

That's fine, and what we advocate. But the ear has a terrible memory and those differences are often only audible with instantaneous A/B testing. I have a switch that let's me try different combinations, A/B, in real time. Of course you can pause on whichever you like for any length of time.

When auditioning caps for the ground shunt on the midrange, I was switching between 9.5 and 10.0 mfd. The difference is extremely subtle, but in some instances the larger value let the speaker roll off just that much sooner and created less "congestion" with the Heil, which is out of phase with the mid through this portion of the band. Other than instaneously A/B-ing the two caps, there would be no way to make this distinction.

And you missed ths point of the videos. They demonstrate that two systems can be at the same volume, but if the frequency bands are not the same, for whatever reason, they won't sound the same.

Sound memory depends on each individual person but I do agree with you that its most discernable with A/B testing for most people. Regardless that just proves there are DIFFERENCES between different capacitors including slightly different values.

Like I said before no two systems will sound the same unless you are using the exact same system regardless of what volumes they are at. as each system will have different frequency bands. This is why when doing test comparisons it has to be done on the EXACT SAME SYSTEM.

 

[kevintomb]

I think what would truly convince me, having seemingly been "fooled" by my sighted comparisons, would be some guys that are Very certain, about hearing some good amount of improvement, do it unsighted and pass with flying colors!

I mean we can beat around the bush all we want, and talk is quite cheap on audio forums, but I have never seen a valid unsighted test where results were quite in favor of one cap or another.

AGAIN, I do think there may be differences, but the differences COULD be mostly in expectations or so on.

I know the old, "With the right system and ears" guys will chime in, but if they are so confident, let them demonstrate it!

 

[DMLBES]

There have been a lot of people world wide who have done blind test with caps, speaker cables, DACs, cable risers etc. Some pass with flying colors while some dont. There are a lot of videos showing these blind test its not there fault if you do not think there vids/test are valid or not. There was a vid of one doing blind A/B cable testing and he passed with flying colors so the only thing the nay sayers in the comment section could say was it was rigged and or he didnt do the test properly.

Again in a blind test we rely on the actual test results and not the expectations. Also the main goal in these test is not about which cap sounds better as that is subjective, its all about if you can hear a "DIFFERENCE".

There is many factors involved. Its like saying one's boom box stereo is the same as some ones super expensive high end audio gear in which they will produce the same type of sound quality which is obviously false. To hear subtle changes ones audio gear needs to be able to produce enough detail for one to hear it, this will also include room treatment as the better treated room will be able to pick up subtle difference better then a non treated room. If you put the most expensive capacitor in a transistor radio it will still sound like a transistor radio. LOL With speaker wire/cables some of them can sound exactly alike or so similar that you wont be able to tell the difference between them YET there will be some cables in which they sound totally different from one another like night and day. The same way some speakers can sound very similar to each other while some sound totally different, this is why there is gazilllion brands/types/model of speakers made throughout history.

Last but not least the only way to truly know is to try it for yourself because at the end of the day you are the one that has to live with it. If you hear a difference and think its worth it to improve on your system then do it , if you dont hear a difference and think its not worth it then dont its really that simple.

With audio you dont have to convince the world you just have to convince yourself.

 

[app4dstn]

I think what would truly convince me, having seemingly been "fooled" by my sighted comparisons, would be some guys that are Very certain, about hearing some good amount of improvement, do it unsighted and pass with flying colors!

I mean we can beat around the bush all we want, and talk is quite cheap on audio forums, but I have never seen a valid unsighted test where results were quite in favor of one cap or another.

AGAIN, I do think there may be differences, but the differences COULD be mostly in expectations or so on.

I know the old, "With the right system and ears" guys will chime in, but if they are so confident, let them demonstrate it!

There have been a lot of people world wide who have done blind test with caps, speaker cables, DACs, cable risers etc. Some pass with flying colors while some dont. There are a lot of videos showing these blind test its not there fault if you do not think there vids/test are valid or not. There was a vid of one doing blind A/B cable testing and he passed with flying colors so the only thing the nay sayers in the comment section could say was it was rigged and or he didnt do the test properly.

Again in a blind test we rely on the actual test results and not the expectations. Also the main goal in these test is not about which cap sounds better as that is subjective, its all about if you can hear a "DIFFERENCE".

There is many factors involved. Its like saying one's boom box stereo is the same as some ones super expensive high end audio gear in which they will produce the same type of sound quality which is obviously false. To hear subtle changes ones audio gear needs to be able to produce enough detail for one to hear it, this will also include room treatment as the better treated room will be able to pick up subtle difference better then a non treated room. If you put the most expensive capacitor in a transistor radio it will still sound like a transistor radio. LOL With speaker wire/cables some of them can sound exactly alike or so similar that you wont be able to tell the difference between them YET there will be some cables in which they sound totally different from one another like night and day. The same way some speakers can sound very similar to each other while some sound totally different, this is why there is gazilllion brands/types/model of speakers made throughout history.

Last but not least the only way to truly know is to try it for yourself because at the end of the day you are the one that has to live with it. If you hear a difference and think its worth it to improve on your system then do it , if you dont hear a difference and think its not worth it then dont its really that simple.

With audio you dont have to convince the world you just have to convince yourself.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Which one is better is SUBJECTIVE and based solely on personal preference.

Also the main goal in these test is not about which cap sounds better as that is subjective...

This is what I find difficult to accept because it appears to deny that there's anything objective about audio reproduction. To my mind, if there's a difference between two audio components it should be possible to say which is better, either by measurement or by listening. That is unless they both suffer equal amounts of "badness", but they're different types of badness.

 

[DMLBES]

This is what I find difficult to accept because it appears to deny that there's anything objective about audio reproduction. To my mind, if there's a difference between two audio components it should be possible to say which is better, either by measurement or by listening. That is unless they both suffer equal amounts of "badness", but they're different types of badness.

Everything about audio is personal preference hence why everyone can say which one is better BUT that does not mean its actually better as that is SUBJECTIVE. Its like asking which foods are better, like who makes the best hamburgers and you can get a thousand different answers because its all personal preference it does not mean they are right or wrong.

The main point of this topic is not about which one is better but if there are differences.

Like I mentioned in another post I use to work at a audio/video store and after letting customers hear some high end audio gear a lot of them asked me where are the Bose speakers.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Everything about audio is personal preference hence why everyone can say which one is better BUT that does not mean its actually better as that is SUBJECTIVE. Its like asking which foods are better, like who makes the best hamburgers and you can get a thousand different answers because its all personal preference it does not mean they are right or wrong.

I disagree entirely. Reproducing recordings is science and engineering and has nothing to do with hamburgers. I think many audiophiles live in their own little bubble and often think audio engineering is all about domestic hi-fi systems, it's just a hobby and it's all subjective. The truth is that there are thousands of radio and TV stations, there are thousands of films and videos made every year, there are thousands of concerts every day, and there are billions of people listening to announcements every day in railways stations, airports shops etc., and in order for all that to work effectively there has been tens of thousands of hours of research and development to refine the equipment required to record and reproduce music and all manner of other sounds. It's all done objectively.

 

[DMLBES]

I disagree entirely. Reproducing recordings is science and engineering and has nothing to do with hamburgers. I think many audiophiles live in their own little bubble and often think audio engineering is all about domestic hi-fi systems, it's just a hobby and it's all subjective. The truth is that there are thousands of radio and TV stations, there are thousands of films and videos made every year, there are thousands of concerts every day, and there are billions of people listening to announcements every day in railways stations, airports shops etc., and in order for all that to work effectively there has been tens of thousands of hours of research and development to refine the equipment required to record and reproduce music and all manner of other sounds. It's all done objectively.

You just proven my point. If you were to ask the billions of people listening to any type of sound related audio and asked them which one sounds the best you could get a billion different answers because audio is subjective. Its like asking who makes the best audio gear and you will get a thousand different answers because once again audio is subjective. Our 5 senses are based on personal preference as its subjective when it comes to what one likes better. Eyes based on sight one will choose the TV they deem looks better to them. The nose, one will pick which perfume/cologne smells better to them. The mouth one will pick which foods taste better to them. Last but not least the ears one will pick which sounds sound better to them. Its like common sense went out the window.

 

[rothwellaudio]

You just proven my point

No, I haven't.

 

[DMLBES]

No, I haven't.

Yes you have, again if you ask a billion people who reproduces the best recordings and you will get thousands of different answers for the mere fact that its subjective. I dont see how I can make myself any more clearer or transparent.

But then again we are living in a time when some people cant even define "WHAT IS A WOMEN".

 

[rothwellaudio]

I dont see how I can make myself any more clearer or transparent.

You've made yourself very clear. You don't believe that sound can be recorded and replayed with any objectivity. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's all subjective, it's not going to convince me it is.
So what if one person likes pizza and another prefers ice cream? They're not trying to record the taste of pizza and/or ice cream and then reproduce it faithfully. It's spurious to compare food to sound.

 

[DMLBES]

You've made yourself very clear. You don't believe that sound can be recorded and replayed with any objectivity. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's all subjective, it's not going to convince me it is.
So what if one person likes pizza and another prefers ice cream? They're not trying to record the taste of pizza and/or ice cream and then reproduce it faithfully. It's fallacious to compare food to sound.

Not to you apparently as you dont seem to get it. Are all sounds recorded and replayed objectively the same? Do all recording engineers record exactly the same way? NO!!!!!! because each recording engineer has their own objective of what they think a recording should sound like which once again is subjective.

WTF???? Record the taste of pizzan and ice cream????? Something is seriously wrong with you man. They can try and recreate the taste of pizza and icecream faithfully but it still subjective, the same way recoding engineers can try and recreate the recording as faithfully as possible but its still subjective as it all comes down to each individuals personal preference. I am not comparing food to sound I am comparing our SENSES. Sight, smell, taste, touch and hearing are all subjective when it pertains to what one likes and or dislikes, unless you are saying that only hearing is the exception?

Anyway Im done if you dont get it by now you probably never will.

 

[toddalin]

Yes you have, again if you ask a billion people who reproduces the best recordings and you will get thousands of different answers for the mere fact that its subjective.

I disagree because how many of these people have actually listened to every recording to make a fair, objective comparison? Their data base is extremely limited by any number of factors and they can only base preference on what they've heard or heard about.

 

[DMLBES]

I disagree because how many of these people have actually listened to every recording to make a fair, objective comparison? Their data base is extremely limited by any number of factors and they can only base preference on what they've heard or heard about.

One does not need to listen to every recording to make a fair objective comparison. That is the only way to "KNOW" which is based of what theyve (experienced) heard or heard about which again is subjective.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Are all sounds recorded and replayed objectively the same? Do all recording engineers record exactly the same way? NO!!!!!! because each recording engineer has their own objective of what they think a recording should sound like which once again is subjective.

This is another spurious argument, this time conflating the production of a piece of music (which is an artistic statement and is, of course, subjective) and the reproduction of that music (which isn't subjective).
Do you re-write sections of novels because you find your version subjectively better? Or re-edit movies because your ideas are subjectively better than the director's? Yet you think your subjectivity should over-rule a musician's or a producer's.

WTF???? Record the taste of pizzan and ice cream????? Something is seriously wrong with you man.

You're the one invoking food preferences as an argument for claiming sound reproduction is entirely subjective.

if you dont get it by now you probably never will.

I don't "get it" because there's nothing to get.