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Do different vendor crossover caps really sound all that different?

Which speaker Crossover Capacitors do you prefer


  • Total voters
    78
Here's some speculation as to why/how different caps sound different. This isn't my own idea, it was inspired by the late Cyril Bateman who conducted some seminal research into capacitor distortion.

First, consider what a capacitor is. It's two plates of conductive material separated by an insulator. The simplest capacitor would be two flat plates of copper (or some other metal) with an air gap between them. The capacitance is a function of the area of the conducting plates and the distance between them. If the distance between them changes, the capacitance changes too. This effect can be used to make a capacitor (aka condenser) microphone. In a microphone one of the plates is a rigid metal conductor and the other is an extremely thin metal conductor (or metalized plastic conductor) which is free to move as sound waves impinge on it. The movement of the thin metal plate causes the distance between it and the rigid metal plate to be modulated, thus the capacitance is modulated, and that in turn can be used to generate and electrical signal. However, the distance between the two plates, and therefore its capacitance, is different when the capacitor has a polarizing voltage on it compared to when it doesn't have a polarizing voltage. The effect can be seen by looking at a reflection in the the shiny surface of the flexible plate (usually referred to as the diaphram) and seeing how it is deflected when a polarizing voltage is applied (usually from "phantom power").

The converse of a capacitor microphone is an electrostatic loudspeaker. In the case of an electrostatic loudspeaker there is a fixed/rigid plate and a flexible conductive plate which is forced into motion by modulating a polarizing voltage between the two. It can be easily observed that the "flexible plate", ie the diaphram, of an electrostatic speaker is limp when the speaker is switched off but is pulled tight when the speaker is powered-up.

So what does all that have to do with capacitors in (non-electrostatic) loudspeaker crossovers? Cyril Bateman's theory was that the physical construction of capacitors was significant if it allowed the two conducting plates to move. In a practical capacitor, as opposed to our super-simple "two conductors with an air gap between them" example, there's usually two thin conductive metal foils separated by a film of insulating plastic material, and the whole thing is rolled-up into a cylinder-shaped object. Alternatively, instead of using two metal foils and an insulating film, a metalized film can be used, ie a plastic film which has had a thin conductive layer applied to its surface by chemical deposition.
Either way, as a voltage is applied across the two terminals of the capacitor the plates will be attracted to each other and if they're free to move they will move closer to each other and the capacitance will change. If a DC voltage is applied the plates will move and stay in their new position with a new capacitance value. However, if an AC voltage is applied the plates will move in sympathy with the voltage and the capacitance will change over the course of the AC cycle. That modulation of capacitance over an AC cycle causes distortion.
Now it isn't difficult to image that a capacitor that is made of very thin material and is wound very loosely into a cylinder is able to expand and contract as AC is applied to it, whereas a capacitor which is made of thicker material and tightly wound and encased in epoxy resin has its tendency to expand and contract restricted. Which capacitor would you expect to suffer less capacitance modulation over an AC cycle? Therefore which capacitor would have less distortion?

Anyway, that's speculation to some extent, but I hope you can see the scientific logic in the argument. Maybe it explains why some capacitors sound different from others in loudspeaker crossovers.
Or maybe it doesn't. :dunno:
 
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Every component in the signal chain affects the output ..
Caps are semiconductors ...
If their materials and construction aren't exactly the same then it shouldn't be surprising if they sound different ..

I've always noticed subtle and sometimes not so subtle differences between dissimilar caps.
Caps are not semiconductors. Transistors and diodes are.
 
JBL, K2 Model S5500 Product Overview, where they devised a method to overcome the dielectric absorption:

1696342527499.png


So JBL is acknowledging capacitors are far from ideal and can contribute audible distortions.

All in all I've concluded that inductors are the benign components on a crossover, and capacitors the bad guys. After all, if you have an air core inductor with sufficiently low resistance and it is mounted in a way that is not inductively coupled with another, it will behave just fine.
 
Which capacitor would you expect to suffer less capacitance modulation over an AC cycle? Therefore which capacitor would have less distortion?

There are probably many ways a capacitor can distort.

However i'd be more worried by inducing movement on the capacitor plates by the vibration inside the loudspeaker box. Thus the preference some people have for mounting the crossover outside the speaker.
 
However i'd be more worried by inducing movement on the capacitor plates by the vibration inside the loudspeaker box.
Yes, that's a possibility too, also mentioned by Cyril Bateman. He was a no-nonsense engineer who worked for a capacitor manufacturer and he believed in the power of measurements. If I'm not mistaken he was one of the first people to make serious measurements of capacitor distortion. His work earned my respect.
 
Interesting. They describe dielectric absorption but I see no mention of a way to overcome it.
There is at least one way, according to the JBL PDF... surprise surprise...

Everything is simple to understand here:

1696345671971.png

9 volts is enough, and it will be simple to realize that the battery will last long since almost no current is drawn once the caps are charged to the biasing point.
 
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There is at least one way, according to the JBL PDF... surprise surprise...

Everything is simple to understand here:

View attachment 3000821

9 volts is enough, and it will be simple to realize that the battery will last long since almost no current is drawn once the caps are charged to the biasing point.
You don't even need a battery, and many of the JBLs go without. They use four diodes to create a full wave rectifier to produce the dc current from the audio signal, then store this voltage in a capacitor which substitutes for the battery.
 
JBL, K2 Model S5500 Product Overview, where they devised a method to overcome the dielectric absorption:

View attachment 3000796


So JBL is acknowledging capacitors are far from ideal and can contribute audible distortions.

All in all I've concluded that inductors are the benign components on a crossover, and capacitors the bad guys. After all, if you have an air core inductor with sufficiently low resistance and it is mounted in a way that is not inductively coupled with another, it will behave just fine.
The turnaround of the "current flow" (charge) is at the top of voltage when the cap is fully charged up or down and then it gets discharged/charged the other way around.

This physical voltage over the cap at that moment is a variable, as it depends on the signal amplitude and as it is music this voltage varies every single polarity change (unless just feeding a steady sine wave....)

Sorry, I do not understand this text...

I also do not see any benefit having two bigger caps and a battery versus one smaller better cap at the price of the battery and the two caps.
 
I have read they tend to sound a lot different when doing "Sighted tests", but sound very similar when doing "Blind tests"


As much as I scoured the internet, I find no actual blind tests backing up that caps sound all that different...................
 
I have read they tend to sound a lot different when doing "Sighted tests", but sound very similar when doing "Blind tests"


As much as I scoured the internet, I find no actual blind tests backing up that caps sound all that different...................
LOL!!!
 
At this point I've only found mention of one blind test finding that different caps sound too similar to tell any difference. Funny that I cannot find it anymore, though from what I recall it was more of a "just try this for the hell of it while we have this setup" than a controlled experiment. I believe it was connected to PartsExpress, but not the least bit certain.
 
I have read they tend to sound a lot different when doing "Sighted tests", but sound very similar when doing "Blind tests"


As much as I scoured the internet, I find no actual blind tests backing up that caps sound all that different...................
Depends on the speakers used and caps used. Highly resolving speakers comparing caps of the same value but very different in construction and materials used is one thing. Comparing not so well resolving speakers and using caps that are similar....ie. Dayton vs Audyn Q4.....you may not notice much, if anything.
 
I'm just disagreeing with twiiii in thinking that the lower ESR of film caps relative to electrolytics is actually an argument against them, not for them. The ESR of the original caps was part of the original voicing, and in replacing the original electrolytics, without compensating for the change in impedance, you are changing the crossover. The added brightness (as it probably will be) may be a good thing or a bad thing, or you may not notice a difference (in which case, your golden ear credentials may be suspect). But it is different issue than that of the audibility of type of capacitor.
 
I'm just disagreeing with twiiii in thinking that the lower ESR of film caps relative to electrolytics is actually an argument against them, not for them. The ESR of the original caps was part of the original voicing, and in replacing the original electrolytics, without compensating for the change in impedance, you are changing the crossover. The added brightness (as it probably will be) may be a good thing or a bad thing, or you may not notice a difference (in which case, your golden ear credentials may be suspect). But it is different issue than that of the audibility of type of capacitor.
So you might have to add a fixed lpad to compensate. Or adjust a pre existing variable lpad.
 
Exactly. But unless you compensate for the differences in ESR, you don't know whether any difference you hear is due to differences in brightness (which often sounds like detail) or some quality of the capacitors. I'm sort of agnostic on this subject, though it is obvious that electrolytic caps can drift, and may need to be replaced. After that, it gets more subjective, even if the only issue is whether you care or not.
 
I don't really believe that MOST speaker manufacturers even consider such things as ESR or the resistance of the inductor. They work with given vendors and use what's available to them to meet a price point set by the Bean Counters even if it means using a higher quality by-pass cap to "crutch" a cheaper cap, or using thinner wire for the chokes

Sure they "voice" the speakers, but they do it using the limited resources they are allotted.
 
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