Do Not Tolerate Mistracking-Ever!!

[nashvillebill]

Right, I agree with you...I got sidetracked a little bit because the terms "mistracking" and "tracking distortion" have often been (incorrectly) used interchangeably, and judging from a couple of responses, that appeared to be the case.

Proper alignment is also good, of course, but I also take exception to some folk's obsessiveness with alignment to the point that they claim (even slight) misalignment causes evil things to happen.

One "traditional" test for mistracking of course would be the cannons going off in the 1812 Overture. (I'm not saying that it really is a good test, just that it gets quoted a lot).

 

[turntabletym]

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here.

You do realize that no matter how carefully the cartridge is aligned...there will only be TWO places on the record that the alignment will be perfect (linear trackers excluded). All other places on the record will experience some degree of tracking distortion.

"Skipping" of course is never tolerable, if that is what the OP is referring to.

You'll right, but nothing it's perfect, in fact if those 2 points are proper set, the rest of distorsions vich involved are not audible, the problem is when alignement it's totaly mistaked.

 

[Wally Swift]

Doesn't the minor differences in vinyl thickness and weight inevitably lead to some inner groove distortion from time to time? Earlier I played two 60's era Mercury LPs and both played fine. Then I played a 60's era Coral LP, also fine. Then I played a late 60's Capitol LP that sounded fine on side 1 but had some distortion during the last two tracks on side 2. I suppose I could make some minor adjustment to hear those last two songs clearer but it's just not practical for me to make adjustments on a per disc basis.

 

[Multiplex]

I assumed that mistracking was a thing of the past for all cartridges, no matter the cartridge cost, because the advanced designs trickled down to less expensive models. But with the comments I have read here, I realized that may not be true. Thus, this post.

I have encountered more than just a few records that seem to be recorded so hot, or bright that even a properly set up, decent tracking cartridge (for example, my M97xE with only about 60 hours,) can't track them without sibilance. Most of the worst offenders seem to have been pressed in the 80's. No doubt casualties of the "volume war." When sibilance or occurs on mint or even unplayed records at the cartridge's maximum VTF, I would have to assume this is a mastering or cutting issue rather than a cartridge, alignment, or compliance issue.

I suppose maybe a $600 LOMC cartridge could properly track those records, but many of us (myself included) can't afford such toys as of yet...

Anyway, this might partially be responsible some of the murmurings of mistracking you're hearing.

Otherwise, I quite agree... Mistracking damages records, and sounds horrible!

 

[Karma16]

HI Multiplex,
I repeat. Mistracking can not be tolerated. And I can assure you that good cartridges will not mistrack no matter the record. I have an Audio Technica OC9/2 on my Thorens TD 125. It never mistracks. And it is my third best cartridge. I do like it though. It tracks like a Ferarri.

Sparky

 

[Pio1980]

Are we getting tracking and tracing confused? Tracking is the stylus tip staying in contact with the groove walls, tracing is how precisely the stylus tip follows the groove undulations. A finer fore/aft pitched stylus tip profile will always trace more accurately.

 

[slate1]

I have found that careful selection of stylus shape and careful alignment are key here.

I will never run anything but a fineline/microline/SAS cartridge, ever, because of this. IGD and mistracking are two things I would never put up with. Period.

Choosing these more aggressive styli shapes goes a long way towards insuring I don't experience these problems. However, the price to be paid is you must carefully align them.

This is the main reason I gave up on cartridges such as the DL-103 and its conical stylus.

 

[cactuscowboy]

If the stylus is rattling around in the groove, VTF is WAAAY off. Ain't no way the stylus is going to rattle around in the groove due to slight misalignment.

I think a common newbie misperception is that increasing tracking force has a huge and damaging effect on record wear. So the beginner, seeing that the recommended VTF range for his cartridge is "0.75 to 1.5 grams" will assume that 'lighter is better', set VTF to 0.75 grams and experience mistracking problems.

It's been my experience that setting VTF at or near the upper end of the recommended range yields far better performance and totally eliminates mistracking.

The only mistracking I ever experience is when playing warped records.

 

[cactuscowboy]

I have encountered more than just a few records that seem to be recorded so hot, or bright that even a properly set up, decent tracking cartridge (for example, my M97xE with only about 60 hours,) can't track them without sibilance. Most of the worst offenders seem to have been pressed in the 80's. No doubt casualties of the "volume war." When sibilance or occurs on mint or even unplayed records at the cartridge's maximum VTF, I would have to assume this is a mastering or cutting issue rather than a cartridge, alignment, or compliance issue.

I suppose maybe a $600 LOMC cartridge could properly track those records, but many of us (myself included) can't afford such toys as of yet...

Anyway, this might partially be responsible some of the murmurings of mistracking you're hearing.

Otherwise, I quite agree... Mistracking damages records, and sounds horrible!

Good points.

I've always understood "SIBILANCE" to be the tendency of some vocalists to produce a harsh "SSSSS" sound on "S" and "CH" words.

Some vocalists are more prone to it than others.

Changing or adjusting placement of microphones during recording can reduce or eliminate sibilance.

Use of a "de-essing" filter in the studio can clean up or remove sibilance.

I have more than a few records that have vocals with distracting sibilance effect. In one especially bad case (Belafonte's Carnegie Hall Concert), I swapped out six different cartridges, to no avail.... the sibilance was in the recording itself.

So I'd agree with Multiplex.... in some cases it's just a crappy recording and no fault of the playback equipment.

 

[turntabletym]

Sibilance might be the cause of the stylus too, i have some record's that use to have that issue, but something bad happened with my stylus and i must replace it, what you think it's happened? Sibilance from the records i know with problems just dissapeared.:thmbsp:

 

[Pio1980]

Sibilance might be the cause of the stylus too, i have some record's that use to have that issue, but something bad happened with my stylus and i must replace it, what you think it's happened? Sibilance from the records i know with problems just dissapeared.:thmbsp:

A worn or damaged stylus/tip would definitely be a cause.

 

[wlmill]

I did not like to listen to vinyl when I was younger because of inner groove distortion. I did not have a good turntable to play my records on until now. As I have mentioned in other threads, I embraced the CD when it came out. I am glad the vinyl bug bit me, because now what I am hearing is amazing. I am not hearing much inner groove distortion out of my system at all. If I do, it is usually because of a worn record. I can usually hear the difference between a worn record and stylus mistracking.

 

[turntabletym]

I did not like to listen to vinyl when I was younger because of inner groove distortion. I did not have a good turntable to play my records on until now. As I have mentioned in other threads, I embraced the CD when it came out. I am glad the vinyl bug bit me, because now what I am hearing is amazing. I am not hearing much inner groove distortion out of my system at all. If I do, it is usually due to a worn record. I can usually hear the difference between a worn record and stylus mistracking.

Your story is exact like mine, when i was younger i had one ceramic cartridge turntable vich usualy distortioning last two tracks of record, but recently i rediscovered vinyl, with an highend turntable, i listen the same record from my younger times and i just can't believe what i've missed that time. It's better later then never:yes:

 

[Multiplex]

Many times that is the case, Turntabletym. Worn styli, bad suspension, warped or twisted cantilevers, improper overhang, improper VTF, improper anti-skate, compliance mismatch, and improper SRA can all contribute to sibilance.

So can low quality styli. For example: Stanton's most recent so-called audiophile cartridges suffered from horrible sibilance, and mistracking at any VTF. No wonder they're no longer in the game.

However, as I expressed earlier, I believe many of these problems can be introduced at the time of cutting as well. This is how I understand it... All records cut using the RIAA equalization curve have a natural propensity to sibilance because of the increased gain of the emphasized high frequencies. When you play back the record, your phono preamp de-emphasizes the high frequencies, producing the flat, balanced sound you hear. The purpose of the RIAA curve is to reduce noise and crackle, and it works! However, it does make the high frequencies on high-level recordings more difficult for your stylus to track. This is why high frequencies commonly mistrack first, creating exaggerated SSSS sounds, or even crackling static sounds in extreme cases. This sibilance you hear is often not only heard in vocals (though it is most common, since vocals are typically out front in the mix,) but can be heard in other instrumentation, such as drum cymbals.

Levels to the cutting head must be monitored carefully by engineers during cutting. If the cutting head modulates at unacceptable levels, mistracking will occur during playback with all but the finest of cartridges. De-essers, or high frequency peak limiters like those used for FM radio can be used to control high frequency impulses, while maintaining a high level of 'apparent loudness.' On some records, it just doesnt appear as though much care was taken during the cutting process.

One record I have (by Boz Scaggs) has one track in particular on the album that starts out a little louder than the others. In the beginning, you can hear sibilance, then the volume level slowly drops to normal. It sounds as though the engineer was pulling down the fader during cutting! The rest of the record is entirely devoid of sibilance.

Most newer vinyl was cut with levels controlled by computer during cutting. Because of this, records with problems like sibilance and mistracking problems introduced at the time of cutting are far less prevalent today.

Whatever the case, I do recognize that there is always room for improvement in my system, and hopefully a MC cartridge like the Audio Technica OC9 will arrive in my headshell in the not so distant future!

 

[melofelo]

a good compliance match between the tonearm and cartridge can help reduce mistracking from the outset...

by the time you've dialed in your cartridge to a 'known' geometry and set your tracking force somewhere 'above' the 1/2 way mark of the cartridge's tracking force range...the problem should all but disappear..

 

[flavio81]

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here.

You do realize that no matter how carefully the cartridge is aligned...there will only be TWO places on the record that the alignment will be perfect (linear trackers excluded). All other places on the record will experience some degree of tracking distortion.

... which is well below audibility and (moreover) well below the distortion introduced by your speakers, for example.

My inner grooves sound fantastic, thank you.

 

[flavio81]

I never set VTF or anti-skating only by the recomandations, i use an record test that have an 1000 Hz signal section, if it can play this without problems it will play succesfuly any other record. It's amazing how the sound came out after correct setting.

I'm afraid this isn't a good idea. Even if that 1000Hz tone was at a high level (say, 35cm/s which is more or less the most a good cartridge can track), and you setting the VTF so it clears that test, the compliance of the cartridge will determine how much VTF needed to track frequencies at 400Hz and below, and you will find that your cartridge won't track at all 33cm/s at 400Hz, if you had that test band.

While, for example, to track correctly a 10000Hz tone is more than anything just a function of the effective moving mass at the stylus tip and not of the VTF.

To put a practical example: I have a very good arm. My Shure V15-IV at 0.25g VTF can track upper-mid and high frequencies with no problem, but once the bass kicks in, the sound will not be allright. It needs VTF of 1.00g to track all but the deepest back notes correctly and without distortion.

 

[flavio81]

I have encountered more than just a few records that seem to be recorded so hot, or bright that even a properly set up, decent tracking cartridge (for example, my M97xE with only about 60 hours,) can't track them without sibilance. Most of the worst offenders seem to have been pressed in the 80's.

Multiplex, you should start suspecting that either (a) your arm bearings are loose or damaged or -more likely- (b) the record itself has been damaged by a previous cartridge. Of course i'm assuming that your stylus tip is shiny clean!!

The M97xE is a great tracker and not prone to sibilance.

I have yet to find a record that distort or have sibilance due to being too hot! At least using my SME III tonearm and known great tracking cartridges. You don't need to spend a lot of money. The AT92ECD, to put an example, is a very good tracker and costs less than $30.

 

[Multiplex]

Multiplex, you should start suspecting that either (a) your arm bearings are loose or damaged or -more likely- (b) the record itself has been damaged by a previous cartridge. Of course i'm assuming that your stylus tip is shiny clean!!

The M97xE is a great tracker and not prone to sibilance.

I have yet to find a record that distort or have sibilance due to being too hot! At least using my SME III tonearm and known great tracking cartridges. You don't need to spend a lot of money. The AT92ECD, to put an example, is a very good tracker and costs less than $30.

I agree that the M97xE is a great tracker- in fact undoubtedly the best in it's low-budget class! It is currently my best tracking cartridge, so needless to say, the mid-fi equipment I am using is not in the class of your equipment, Flavio81. But I have tried to optimize as best I can for what I have....

My M97xE has seen most of it's use on my SL-Q3, which has had some bearing problems in the past, but is nice and tight now. It yields an identical performance on my like-new SLQ-202, with an impeccable tonearm, (well, as impeccable as can be expected on a low/mid-fi Technics.) I keep the stylus clean by brushing between sides, and a deep clean every few weeks or so, depending on usage. It have tried aligning it with the factory Shure protractor, a VE Stevensen protractor, and with the Technics overhang measurement, which seems to yield the best performance to my ear.

One factor worthy of mention is that my Shure has a slightly skewed cantilever, which seems to be a common minor defect in that line, since Shure's quality control ain't so hot. However, it tracks very good, and rotating it ever so slightly in the headshell seems to further improve tracking. As it is, it out-tracks my Grado F1+, and easily outperforms my recently purchased AT92ECD mounted on my P-Mount Technics SL-QX300 in about every way. I usually play the Shure at about 1.8-2g, Stabilizer down, AS 1.5-2, though the Stabilizer largely negates it's effect.

I have probably around 300 records dating from the early 60's to 2006 or so. Just guessing, I probably have over 60 that exhibit slight sibilance, and maybe dozen or so that exhibit objectionable sibilance. Some of them are worn, but a few are in NM-mint condition, recently purchased. I suppose it's possible that they are all damaged, but not probable. A few of these I have acquired multiple copies of, and encountered the same results.

Records I listened to tonight:

Johnny Hates Jazz. Minor sibilance at the beginning of "Don't Say It's Love"
Donald Fagen, The Nightfly. Sibilance at the beginning of "Maxine," minor sibilance in "The Nightfly," and "The Goodbye Look"
Peter Gabriel, So. Sibilance in "Sledgehammer," "Don't Give Up," and "In Your Eyes."
Toto, The Seventh One. No sibilance at all!

Maybe I have worse luck with equipment and vinyl selection than most, or I'm just too damn picky. I'm still very skeptical that all records are created equal.

I do hear many vinyl listeners swear up and down that sibilance and mistracking don't exist on their system... It makes me wonder if it's really not there, or if some don't really even notice when IGD, sibilance, or mistracking in general is taking place? :scratch2:

 

[flavio81]

Multiplex, a record can LOOK like if it was near mint, but still be damaged at the inner grooves. Happens sometimes when i shop for used records.

Now, on your case, your arm bearings may require re-adjustment... I have experienced sibilance induced by loose arm bearings before; the same record tracked perfectly on a good arm.

The good news is that with some patience you can readjust those Technics arms. The SL-Q3 is a good turntable.