Do you run a sub in your 2 channel system?
- Thread starter cubdog
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jindra
Well-Known Member
Initially I bought a 15" Rythmik mainly to keep up with my Magnepans, but I wanted a sub for everything. I really like how to rythmik plays with my DQ-10's, just fills the bottom end so nicely. I had to play with the phase to get it sounding good with my Infinities. I don't like playing stuff without the sub anymore, it adds atmosphere and depth to nearly everything. It took a while to figure out exactly how I like it, at one point I really got frustrated and stopped using it for a bit. Once I calmed down and set it up better I started to really enjoy it. It really helps with movies and games, but I also listen to a lot of deep bass music so It's a must for me. No regrets at all.
cubdog
banging through drywall
Sony has on occasion produced speakers of excellent quality but most go unknown due to their cost and the Sony moniker. As for mine I was lucky enough to buy JohnVF's when he decided to sell his. He knew I wanted them and we live about 100 mile from each other so I could pick them up. I may have threatened him as well if I was off my medications.
There a lot of pictures of mine in the various threads that discuss these. Now if I can find a pair of the SS-M9s I'll be ecstatic. I'm as happy with these as I have ever been with a speaker. Their visual appeal is just a bonus.cubdog
I agree with a lot of this, but I think the biggest issue is that, while most if not all woofers will actually play a 20hz tone, the problem is, very very few can so at even modest output levels. The amount of power and excursion it takes to produce a 20hz tone at say 100, or even 90 db is simply more than most "full range" towers are designed to do.
Then of course there are room acoustics to deal with, not to even mention the fact that nearly no music has 20hz bass. I know some music does, but the vast majority of music does not. I know no main stream music does. Most peoples idea of low bass is probably more in the range of 40hz, not 20hz like they may think.
It seems like some people think it's an insult to their speakers to even suggest they'd benefit from subwoofers. I say subwoofers, because I think single subs often end up sounding bad in many setups. And if some don't take it as an insult, they've simply only heard bad execution of subwoofers and now have completely written them off. It's not like a subwoofer adds bass that isn't in the recording, it simply plays what's present, exactly like a tweeter does, except at the opposite end of the spectrum. If anyone is aware of the sub in their system, then I'd say it's running too loud and needs to be adjusted. Subwoofers definitely aren't something you just plop in a corner, crank the volume up and you're done. They take some pretty careful adjustments and tweaking, but the results are well worth it.
Zonker92
All shiny and chrome
For those responders whose main speakers roll off at 30 Hz or 40 Hz, who say they don't need a sub (and I noted several such responders above), I would just suggest that unless your hearing doesn't extend lower than your speakers, you're missing some music as an absolute fact. My main speakers are usable to 30 Hz and when I use my sub, I can hear notes that are below what the speakers can do.
Just saying. That bottom range between 20 Hz - 30 (or 40 or whatever) Hz has some really cool music, just waiting to be unlocked and heard.
Just saying. That bottom range between 20 Hz - 30 (or 40 or whatever) Hz has some really cool music, just waiting to be unlocked and heard.
bart1
Well-Known Member
Not any more: http://sportsbil.com/ads/l-1530-ownersmanual-1981.pdf
Lapslah
Super Member
Agreed! Well said.
I have 3 subs in the HT system the frt towers have built in powered subs . The big DVC 15" DBX powered sub (the dedicated DBX 2Ch amp is outside of the box) I add it in for movie effects and sometimes music or sometimes leave it off .
In the studio I have 2 midfield pro monitors with 8" woofers and
I use A DCM 12"powered SUB in there even with the smaller 6.5" near fields it helps .
The DCM powered sub helps a lot in there and most importantly blends in seamlessly.
Surprisingly It even helps the big EV sentry III's in there that each have their own 15" woofers
they actually play nice with a sub.
Ofc there are maybe 4 exceptions posted in this thread probably some more the big Infinities and Genelac 1's come to mind along
Bi amped JBL 4345s with the 18-inch woofers and the combined combined 6 12"
JBLs that were also mentioned they can probably get along without subs I wish I had some of those to find out!
89 grand brought up real good points well worth reading so I won't repeat them
except the one that you should not be able to "hear" the sub that that the key
especially with music.
I've had JBL towers with dual 12 " woofers that in hindsight would have benefited from a powered sub .
Some folks say not much music goes below 40hz therefore they don't need a sub My experience and that of others refutes that in most cases, while that may be true the music at least down to ~40hz that a powered sub plays greatly improves the
bass in most rooms.
lotta folks don't think they need a sub ......... until they get one.
In the studio I have 2 midfield pro monitors with 8" woofers and
I use A DCM 12"powered SUB in there even with the smaller 6.5" near fields it helps .
The DCM powered sub helps a lot in there and most importantly blends in seamlessly.
Surprisingly It even helps the big EV sentry III's in there that each have their own 15" woofers
they actually play nice with a sub.
Ofc there are maybe 4 exceptions posted in this thread probably some more the big Infinities and Genelac 1's come to mind along
Bi amped JBL 4345s with the 18-inch woofers and the combined combined 6 12"
JBLs that were also mentioned they can probably get along without subs I wish I had some of those to find out!
89 grand brought up real good points well worth reading so I won't repeat them
except the one that you should not be able to "hear" the sub that that the key
especially with music.
I've had JBL towers with dual 12 " woofers that in hindsight would have benefited from a powered sub .
Some folks say not much music goes below 40hz therefore they don't need a sub My experience and that of others refutes that in most cases, while that may be true the music at least down to ~40hz that a powered sub plays greatly improves the
bass in most rooms.
lotta folks don't think they need a sub ......... until they get one.
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cratz2
Addicted Member
Well, 'need' is perhaps overstating the case... And I think many folks aren't saying that they feel their speakers get into subwoofer frequencies, just that they don't miss those frequencies. I mean, if string trios are someone's thing and they have speakers that get solidly to 40 Hz then a sub wound literally make less than a 1% difference and might even price distracting.
On the other hand, I've turned a number of classical and jazz listeners onto subs... A lot if folks tgat previously thought subs were only for movie-watchers, rockers and fans of rap.
On the other hand, I've turned a number of classical and jazz listeners onto subs... A lot if folks tgat previously thought subs were only for movie-watchers, rockers and fans of rap.
Zonker92
All shiny and chrome
Sure; some people may simply choose not to be able to play the lowest frequencies, whether because their hearing doesn't go that low, or their music doesn't have a lot of bass, or deep bass is not a priority, or they don't want the hassle or expense or clutter of a sub.
My point was only that if people think that speakers with a 30 or 40 Hz rolloff are going to be able to play all the bass that can be found on all recordings, then that's factually untrue.
My point was only that if people think that speakers with a 30 or 40 Hz rolloff are going to be able to play all the bass that can be found on all recordings, then that's factually untrue.
cubdog
banging through drywall
I think most sub fans seem to think the more the better. I have two HT subs but only one in my two channel system. That doesn't make much sense because my HT gets little use. Might be time to re-evaluate.
cubdog
Yup. I run the mains full range and use the powered subs internal crossover as a low-pass filter set to only cut in when the mains start to fade out on the bottom.
Finding the right balance of crossover/level/placement can be a bit time consuming but, in the end, it's worth it. When you've got it nailed, the only time you should notice the sub is when deep bass is present and you turn it off.
Finding the right balance of crossover/level/placement can be a bit time consuming but, in the end, it's worth it. When you've got it nailed, the only time you should notice the sub is when deep bass is present and you turn it off.
I recommend two at a minimum, I run three in my main setup. The rooms bass response is much more uniform and smooth with multiple subs, and much less likely to be located than with just one sub.
The biggest problem in most rooms with just one sub is that they rarely seem to perform the best in the location you want to put it in. Most times, you'll have hot and cold spots all over the place in the room. It may be real loud in one place in the room, and you can't even hear it in the listening position.
Multiple subs goes along way in reducing that effect. Even now with 3 subs, the rooms response is pretty good through out, but the subs will sounded louder when I walk into a different room. I tried a single sub in both of my setups initially, and could not get anywhere near the response I do now.
I have a beginner type set up. cpu to onkyo 2500mkII to cerwin vega re30's and a low end jbl 8 inch powered sub. For music I think the bass from the speakers is more than enough for me. But for video games and movies I couldn't imagine not having a sub. Looking at getting another too, but it maybe to much for my tiny room.