Do you run a sub in your 2 channel system?

[cubdog]

I'm no expert in this but here are a few observations as they apply to my set up. What I find is, that adding a sub increases my sound stage. That is the main benefit. My speakers also sound bigger and the mid range seems to open up. Quite frankly I don't noticed a huge difference in the overall bass output. The only reason that I don't always run a sub or multiple subs is that I hate the integration process. If it's not right the results can be very bad. So far, in my current set up, I'm pretty happy and the process has been relatively smooth.

cubdog

 

[GuyNoir]

I'm thinking a Dayton Audio sub-1200 or sub-1000 under each TW1a. I just picked up a mint HK AVR 235 (TESTED!) on the 'bay for $20 plus shipping. We'll see just how thoroughly it was tested...not here yet. I'm thinking of letting the HK power the TWs and handle bass management, get powered subs for what's missing, and flip my NAD stuff. Depending on how good the HK's DAC is, the soundcard might go too. The TWs just seem to reach a point of diminishing returns upon application of a lot of current. Unless of course, they need more than the NAD can deliver.

 

[JoeESP9]

I totally-understand your point, but what do you use for a sub with an alnico-driver-loaded system from the early '60's? To match something to a vintage dual 12" speaker like mine would involve some kind of multi-tier (and maybe multi-amp) thing. Like adding an extra tier to a two-tier system. I see people doing it with OB designs, but even if I could get it to work (in this room), I just don't have the money (or the know-how) for that yet. Busy enjoying what I have for the moment.

IMO the material used for the magnet is not relevant. There are many factors other than the material used for the magnet. Despite what many think, alnico magnets do not and can not produce a different magnetic field than any other magnetic material.

The major problem with sub woofers that don't sound right is improper integration with the mains. Either the crossover frequency is too high or the level is too high. Frequently it's both. If you can tell a sub woofer is being used it's not properly integrated.

Sure; some people may simply choose not to be able to play the lowest frequencies, whether because their hearing doesn't go that low, or their music doesn't have a lot of bass, or deep bass is not a priority, or they don't want the hassle or expense or clutter of a sub.

My point was only that if people think that speakers with a 30 or 40 Hz rolloff are going to be able to play all the bass that can be found on all recordings, then that's factually untrue.

We are in complete agreement.

I've heard bass sounds are "non-directional." Does anyone deem a sub-woofer per channel advantageous?

Yes, definitely and absolutely. Distributed bass using two or more sub woofers is the way to go.

At one time I thought any true "full range" speaker had adequate bass. I then had an opportunity to hear the Infinity IRS-V and Apogee Grand systems. Once you hear deep, loud, effortless bass, flat to below 20Hz you will never be satisfied with "anemic" bass ever again.

 

[dc270]

Do not run a sub in my system- the two (avatar) AE TD15M's reach down plenty low enough to grab those mid 30's and throw them back at me! With enough cab volume you can do wonders- and a woofer/ design that takes full advantage of that cab volume as well!
DC

 

[cubdog]

Do not run a sub in my system- the two (avatar) AE TD15M's reach down plenty low enough to grab those mid 30's and throw them back at me! With enough cab volume you can do wonders- and a woofer/ design that takes full advantage of that cab volume as well!
DC

Have you tried your speakers with a sub? I'm more interested in what a sub can do for big full range speakers than what they will do for bookshelf speakers. I suspect the improvement in many cases would not be slight.

cubdog

 

[Zonker92]

I have run a sub with 250Tis (rated down to 30 Hz) and they made a very substantial difference. I had it dialed in well. It was not obtrusive or boomy. But it sure added to the bottom end of the bass in a great many recordings.

 

[burgerbob]

Nope. I would love to try it though.

 

[Batch68]

I run two of my systems with a sub & would with the third as well, but it is in the living room and the wife ain't having that.

 

[gib48189]

GuyNoir,

TW's really open up with some power. I am using a Carver 6250 with mine, it is rated at 125wpc, not sure what it is pushing at 6ohms. All I can say is there is no comparison with them being driven by my old Rotel integrated amp (80wpc), the HK AVR 354 (75wpc) in the HT setup. The Carver just matches really well with them, I really can't imagine them sounding better. I am not using a Sub, I may be missing something, but the low end of these TW, in the set-up I have them in, meets my taste and enjoyment at the levels I listen to them at.

I'm not dismissing any of the posts here, the sound we all enjoy is subjective to each of our tastes and I respect and enjoy reading everyone's comments. I have a DCM sub, I just don't use it.

 

[Vintagear]

Just saying. That bottom range between 20 Hz - 30 (or 40 or whatever) Hz has some really cool music, just waiting to be unlocked and heard.

I agree with you 100%. My current main speakers go down to 12 Hz and the first time I listened to them it was like hearing (feeling) content that was previously missing. I don't use subs in my two channel listening, but I really don't need to because of these speakers.

If I ever switch to a smaller "less full-range" speaker I may consider one, but I'm sure I would have a tough time getting the balance right. I'm sure with the right crossover and a lot of time & tweaking they can be made to integrate well. I've just never done it.

 

[Poultrygeist]

I haven't needed subs recently, but when I do I love my pair of MJK OB H-frames. Strong output down to the low 30's and just about as musical a sub as I have ever heard. Next on the list is a pair of slot loaded open baffles with four AE IB15's I have sitting around.

Yes the H-frames are quite musical. OB bass has to be heard in order to be believed.

 

[GuyNoir]

GuyNoir,

TW's really open up with some power. I am using a Carver 6250 with mine, it is rated at 125wpc, not sure what it is pushing at 6ohms. All I can say is there is no comparison...

Thanks Gib. I want to at least hear what they sound like with the HK. I've been running the NAD amp so long, I forgot what anything else sounded like. In theory, it should be well capable of driving these near 200wpc. I know the TWs aren't supposed to be bright, but my system somehow manages to make them so. At this point, I'm not discounting the very real possibility that there might be something wrong with my hearing.

I am not using a Sub, I may be missing something, but the low end of these TW, in the set-up I have them in, meets my taste and enjoyment at the levels I listen to them at.

Having just swapped out a pair of large floor-standing JBLs with 14" woofers and 15" passives (which incredibly, some users found necessary to run with the JBL 460b 18" subwoofer) the TWs sound a little thin. They certainly don't punch you in the gut like the JBLs did. I am really constrained on placement, so I'm sure that doesn't help.


Sorry to take the thread sideways, ya'll. :arrow:

 

[GuyNoir]

Yes the H-frames are quite musical. OB bass has to be heard in order to be believed.

Purdy!

 

[89grand]

I'm just curious if anyone that has mains that are supposed to go down to 20hz, or lower, or in fact even 30hz and less, has room measurements at the seating position.

I'm not calling anyone out, but I find this rather hard to believe. My DCM TW3's claim a response down to 24hz, but it ain't happening at any sound level worth mentioning. Maybe they can at less than 60db, but they sure aren't doing it at the levels I frequently listen at.

 

[Gibsonian]

Got subs. I like the added "bigness" of the sound, and the cleaning up of the midbass that I perceive. I gotta have it clean though, and it must sound musical - done right it makes it more natural/musical. Done wrong can give one a bad trip for sure.

 

[JimPA]

I'm just curious if anyone that has mains that are supposed to go down to 20hz, or lower, or in fact even 30hz and less, has room measurements at the seating position.

.

Yes my I.M. Fried designed 3 way satellite and subwoofers are within 3 db at 20hz.

The 1/4W T-line used in the subs have a line length of 10.4 feet.
Using a very low Qts. 10" driver that have a very long xmas make this possible.

 

[89grand]

Yes my I.M. Fried designed 3 way satellite and subwoofers are within 3 db at 20hz.

The 1/4W T-line used in the subs have a line length of 10.4 feet.
Using a very low Qts. 10" driver that have a very long xmas make this possible.

I probably should have been a little more specific, I can see a speaker having 20hz response, but the real question is, at what SPL can it do it, and what is it at the seating position. In my case, my 3 subs are less about, but still are to a degree, getting lower bass, and more about smooth bass response at the seating position along with the rest of the room.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

IMO the material used for the magnet is not relevant. There are many factors other than the material used for the magnet. Despite what many think, alnico magnets do not and can not produce a different magnetic field than any other magnetic material.

The major problem with sub woofers that don't sound right is improper integration with the mains. Either the crossover frequency is too high or the level is too high. Frequently it's both. If you can tell a sub woofer is being used it's not properly integrated.

I was mainly speaking to the point of them being a tube-era speaker with a very-different sound, something made WELL-before subwoofers became a thing in home hi-fi. The "alnico" part was only to illustrate that point... At this point, for me, it's more-about the era and general designer-approach than it is about the materials used... as far as sounding different or not sounding different.

My two 12" woofers in each of my current mains are being run in full-range. No caps used on them. And this seems to be part of their charm (The early W90 version I have, that is... The later ones had the frequencies split between them, one for upper-bass and the other for lower, but not mine). So I have to wonder how well a sub is going to integrate with that. I'm not disagreeing. I'm simply wondering if this will be an issue, and if so, what does one use that will work best in that situation.

 

[sonex]

Yes my I.M. Fried designed 3 way satellite and subwoofers are within 3 db at 20hz.

The 1/4W T-line used in the subs have a line length of 10.4 feet.
Using a very low Qts. 10" driver that have a very long xmas make this possible.

3db is the point were the average person first perceives volume change, so that -3db would be very good bass sound volume. very nice. My speakers have a f3 of 34 hz which to be honest works for the music I listen to. Only pipe organs, harp and contrabason reach below 30hz so I'm not missing much.

 

[89grand]

I always run my mains wide open, no high pass, and just use the low pass on the subs, typically around 100hz or whatever works for the situation. I also adjust phase and amplitude until I have what I want out of the subs.