Do you think... phonopreamp
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markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
There's phono stages with prices all over the map. And often with quality to match. One could spend $39, and one could spend $60,000. I seen a $60K Phono Stage a few months back online, Battery Powered with massive Battery Banks.
Such depends on what Cartridge you have, and what future cartridges you might intend to one day buy?
I can't speak for Schitt, or other less expensive models, but basically you do get what you pay for I believe.
Better build quality with better designs and parts consist. Greater degree of adjustability if you ever choose to delve into MC Cartridges, particularly low output. The higher up the ladder you go, and spend a bit more than you initially intended to can often stave off future upgraditis.
Usually the more expensive models will still have settings of loading and gain for most common output MM Cartridges. And of course better fidelity-sound.
One could consider used, because some good money can be saved, but buying used might also negate you being able to return a unit if for whatever reason the unit isn't a liked match, or sound. Most better dealers will let you return a unit for refund within an allotted period of time. At least in USA that's usually permissible.
I might be further inclined to say that while a very high quality phono stage "should" help extract the very best sound from any given Cartridge used, there will be a point of diminishing returns with person teaming a $129 Audio Technica Cartridge with a US $3,000-$5,000 Phono Stage. The weakest link always comes to mind about limitations, and influence within an audio system.
That the phono stage of this caliber won't likely be transforming a $129 MM Cartridge into a high end, and very costly MC type all other things being equal.
Such depends on what Cartridge you have, and what future cartridges you might intend to one day buy?
I can't speak for Schitt, or other less expensive models, but basically you do get what you pay for I believe.
Better build quality with better designs and parts consist. Greater degree of adjustability if you ever choose to delve into MC Cartridges, particularly low output. The higher up the ladder you go, and spend a bit more than you initially intended to can often stave off future upgraditis.
Usually the more expensive models will still have settings of loading and gain for most common output MM Cartridges. And of course better fidelity-sound.
One could consider used, because some good money can be saved, but buying used might also negate you being able to return a unit if for whatever reason the unit isn't a liked match, or sound. Most better dealers will let you return a unit for refund within an allotted period of time. At least in USA that's usually permissible.
I might be further inclined to say that while a very high quality phono stage "should" help extract the very best sound from any given Cartridge used, there will be a point of diminishing returns with person teaming a $129 Audio Technica Cartridge with a US $3,000-$5,000 Phono Stage. The weakest link always comes to mind about limitations, and influence within an audio system.
That the phono stage of this caliber won't likely be transforming a $129 MM Cartridge into a high end, and very costly MC type all other things being equal.
Zaemon
Active Member
Surely youre right about this.
Im sorry and should have stated what gear i use.
Im pretty much satisfied with my setup, but think the weakest link could be the phonostage and i am wondering wether an upgrade makes sense, if its in the 300$ range (diy or not). Guess it has to be tried.
So its an Onkyo P3090 preamp ( with M5060r main )
Kenwood KD 990 TT
AT33EV MC Cardridge
Im also interessted in diy phonostages, but dont want to put in the effort if it isnt worth it.
Im sorry and should have stated what gear i use.
Im pretty much satisfied with my setup, but think the weakest link could be the phonostage and i am wondering wether an upgrade makes sense, if its in the 300$ range (diy or not). Guess it has to be tried.
So its an Onkyo P3090 preamp ( with M5060r main )
Kenwood KD 990 TT
AT33EV MC Cardridge
Im also interessted in diy phonostages, but dont want to put in the effort if it isnt worth it.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Your AT Cartridge has an output of .3mv, and recommended loading is 100 ohms.
I would guess for that Cartridge, one would need a phono stage that can produce 60-62db of gain. Maybe less, but probably not much less . And of course would have loading options for 100-200 ohms.
Units can vary slightly. One unit producing 58db of gain may seem identically loud compared to another unit set to 62db.
Appears your Onkyo has two settings, one for MM, and one for MC, or two separate phono jack inputs, correct?
How is the output and gain at the MC setting with that Cartridge? Is it ample? If not quite, sure, one can compensate at the volume dial, but as well, low gain/output from a phono stage can make the Cartridge sound somewhat lackluster, less dynamic, anemic. Too much gain has basically the opposite effect, much too hot when it hits the preamp stage in the preamp, things can get distorted, raspy, quite unbalanced.
Sure, phono can sometimes sound a little less loud than say playing a CD Player through another input, such is not uncommon. Then a slight tweak to the volume control is required. As long as the change is not what I would call drastic. Meaning you have to turn the volume knob to1 oclock, whereas the CD player plays at the same equal volume at 9 oclock. Hope this makes sense.
Living where your are, I would assume you would wish to find the best product that works and fits your needs for your money spent.
I would say research what is within your price range, weed through units that have potential and features you may need and like. Then read all you can about such particular models from reviews if possible. Reviews aren't always accurate, but they still may be of use.
Let's take one example. A phono stage such as the Sutherland 20/20. I think one would be very hard pressed to read anything less than stellar reviews with very high praise of this phono stage.
Sutherland is one example of very good company that makes all very good phono stages that are worth the money paid for them.
A used Sutherland KC Vibe at a great reduced from new price could be one very nice pick possibly? Would a unit like the KC Vibe best the phono stage in your Onkyo? I would guess yes, very handily.
Again through, reviews could be stellar, very nice unit, but it must be a unit that at least should have the versatility and decent, and/or required degree of adjustment settings, to cover what Cartridge you use today, and possibly the next that you might choose to buy-use in the future?
The future is always one consideration with audio gear, particularly a phono stage.
I would guess for that Cartridge, one would need a phono stage that can produce 60-62db of gain. Maybe less, but probably not much less . And of course would have loading options for 100-200 ohms.
Units can vary slightly. One unit producing 58db of gain may seem identically loud compared to another unit set to 62db.
Appears your Onkyo has two settings, one for MM, and one for MC, or two separate phono jack inputs, correct?
How is the output and gain at the MC setting with that Cartridge? Is it ample? If not quite, sure, one can compensate at the volume dial, but as well, low gain/output from a phono stage can make the Cartridge sound somewhat lackluster, less dynamic, anemic. Too much gain has basically the opposite effect, much too hot when it hits the preamp stage in the preamp, things can get distorted, raspy, quite unbalanced.
Sure, phono can sometimes sound a little less loud than say playing a CD Player through another input, such is not uncommon. Then a slight tweak to the volume control is required. As long as the change is not what I would call drastic. Meaning you have to turn the volume knob to1 oclock, whereas the CD player plays at the same equal volume at 9 oclock. Hope this makes sense.
Living where your are, I would assume you would wish to find the best product that works and fits your needs for your money spent.
I would say research what is within your price range, weed through units that have potential and features you may need and like. Then read all you can about such particular models from reviews if possible. Reviews aren't always accurate, but they still may be of use.
Let's take one example. A phono stage such as the Sutherland 20/20. I think one would be very hard pressed to read anything less than stellar reviews with very high praise of this phono stage.
Sutherland is one example of very good company that makes all very good phono stages that are worth the money paid for them.
A used Sutherland KC Vibe at a great reduced from new price could be one very nice pick possibly? Would a unit like the KC Vibe best the phono stage in your Onkyo? I would guess yes, very handily.
Again through, reviews could be stellar, very nice unit, but it must be a unit that at least should have the versatility and decent, and/or required degree of adjustment settings, to cover what Cartridge you use today, and possibly the next that you might choose to buy-use in the future?
The future is always one consideration with audio gear, particularly a phono stage.
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markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Often, and in many Preamplifiers, not a heck of a lot of money is invested into the phono stage. Even in many quite expensive Preamps.
Those who climb the vinyl ladder know that to achieve better, and impressive sonic quality, it's a large ball of wax, many components come into play before that signal ever reaches the Preamp.
The AT Cartridge should by all rights be a very nice performer. Now what about Table, Arm, proper set up, the phono cable, which does have a quite apparent difference between the bad, and the good, and the very good.
Usually, no money is wasted here, the signal is very low voltage, and proper shielding-grounding, and high quality wiring-conductors is paramount.
Often, phono systems can act like nasty antennas, and be a bane no matter the money spent. And it can be a specific flaw, and cause from a phono stage.
That's a disaster at any cost, hearing the radio when playing vinyl.
It was one aspect that sold me years ago to buy the Sutherland PHD Phono Stage. This Battery Powered Phono Stage is quite immune to the issues of RFI and EMI interference. Being battery powered removes it from the electrical grid, and it's case is substantial to help shield, the design is smart, its innards, like all Sutherland products are laid out so cleanly and logical.
No, it's maybe not in the league of a top tier Manley Steelhead Phono Stage, or beyond, but it's dead quiet with extremely low noise floor, quite adjustable, just change 16 D-Cell Batteries about every 12-14 months is all.
And it sure does not seem to lack sonically, it pushes many right buttons.
No power switches, the unit activates and shuts off automatically via sentry monitor which is adjustable via a Pot on the Motherboard. You might be able to find such for a 1/3rd of its brand new price since it's no longer produced.
Usually, phono stages particularly the Sutherland Units are quite durable, and trouble free.
Those who climb the vinyl ladder know that to achieve better, and impressive sonic quality, it's a large ball of wax, many components come into play before that signal ever reaches the Preamp.
The AT Cartridge should by all rights be a very nice performer. Now what about Table, Arm, proper set up, the phono cable, which does have a quite apparent difference between the bad, and the good, and the very good.
Usually, no money is wasted here, the signal is very low voltage, and proper shielding-grounding, and high quality wiring-conductors is paramount.
Often, phono systems can act like nasty antennas, and be a bane no matter the money spent. And it can be a specific flaw, and cause from a phono stage.
That's a disaster at any cost, hearing the radio when playing vinyl.
It was one aspect that sold me years ago to buy the Sutherland PHD Phono Stage. This Battery Powered Phono Stage is quite immune to the issues of RFI and EMI interference. Being battery powered removes it from the electrical grid, and it's case is substantial to help shield, the design is smart, its innards, like all Sutherland products are laid out so cleanly and logical.
No, it's maybe not in the league of a top tier Manley Steelhead Phono Stage, or beyond, but it's dead quiet with extremely low noise floor, quite adjustable, just change 16 D-Cell Batteries about every 12-14 months is all.
And it sure does not seem to lack sonically, it pushes many right buttons.
No power switches, the unit activates and shuts off automatically via sentry monitor which is adjustable via a Pot on the Motherboard. You might be able to find such for a 1/3rd of its brand new price since it's no longer produced.
Usually, phono stages particularly the Sutherland Units are quite durable, and trouble free.
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markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
One time many years ago, one of the first phono stages I tried was made by Audio Alchemy. It cost about $100US, and wasn't much larger than a pack of Cigarettes. I tried pairing it with a Benz Micro Glider High Output (1.9mv) MC Cartridge.
It sounded decent, there was enough gain, but it was pretty rough around the edges, a bit raspy, and raw, lacked refinement, That one was returned quite quickly to the audio dealer (MusicDirect) who let me audition it in home.
It sounded decent, there was enough gain, but it was pretty rough around the edges, a bit raspy, and raw, lacked refinement, That one was returned quite quickly to the audio dealer (MusicDirect) who let me audition it in home.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
I don't know much about SUTs, but aren't they pretty much a one trick pony, in that they lack adjustable gain? What about loading values?
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
That might be fine if one succeeds in getting an SUT that is compatible as far as gain with an existing Cartridge on hand. But what about the next Cartridge one might decide to buy? Let's say the current cartridge on hand is .33mv, like the OP's AT Cartridge. And the new one is .22mv? Or .45mv?
I know I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I'm saying to myself "Crap, here I go, again a couple-few years later looking for something that will work, because this one I have on hand is now not cutting it".
I could be wrong, but sounds like such could be a situation where it's "see me now, or see me later", and one winds up spending more money eventually than they would've liked to.
That was one perk about my Sutherland PHD, it came stock with 4 gain settings, 45-50-55-60db gain, and the optional High Gain plug and play Boards that I bought for $70 extra after provides 62-64-66-68db gain.
Four loading values, 47K, 100, 200 1000 ohms, and have the optional blank boards where one can solder their own desired values for custom loading options.
With that unit, I see no future issues for myself whether using MM, or for just about any MC made.
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
IME, a step-up transformer removes finicky loading requirements from the picture. One with a 1:10 windings ratio will step up his output voltage from .3mV to 3 mV, and even my lowly Denon AU-300LC beat out the MC stage of the Sutherland Ph3D I had for awhile, sonically.
IMO, anyone running LOMC carts owes themselves a listen to a decent SUT. One with a dual ratio of 1:10 and 1:20 should handle 95% of the LOMCs out there, with more liveliness and separation than most MC stages, to my ears at least. I don't regard them as "one trick ponies"; not at all, but very flexible accessories. If more gain is desired, remove some of the already-applied attenuation by turning the volume knob clockwise a bit. That's why it's there! Not trying to be snarky, and I'm sure your PHD sounds marvelous, but it was $2K when new. I would like to try and talk the OP out of buying a $200 phono preamp, because I think he'll be disappointed.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
As I mentioned, I'm no authority of SUT types. The Sutherland PHD was $3,000 when it was introduced.
I only mentioned my own equipment as a personal experience, and not trying to say that one was perhaps inferior to the other.
The PHD, and PH3D were two products which used Battery Power (D-Cells) and while they are exceptional products in their own right, there's greater, and lesser to be had, even within their own product line.I also own a Sutherland 20/20 with the LPS.
Sutherland currently no longer makes Phono Amps that use Batteries. Imagine there were a variety of reasons, and part of such decisions to change direction was sonically related.
It all has to come down to a personal choice, and all's cool that we're providing various options for the original poster, and others here in similar situations.
Much depends upon cost, and proper logical fit within a system.
This is an area in which I always feel is one where one hopefully chooses to buy something a little more expensive than they could afford. Often the money will not feel wasted.
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markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Not everyone is so handy, myself included.
As I say, will all have to come down to what's a personal fit for any one person and their system?
I think my earlier suggestion was a good one, to keep an eye out for something used. That's one way to possibly get something nice, and at a price savings. And like I mentioned, usually a phono stage doesn't electronically come under the high stress of like say a Class A Amp would.
The selection is vast, and I admit, confusing as well.
mkane
Lunatic Member
Zaemon
Active Member
The SUT option is pretty cool. Easy to diy and to customise with some additional resistors. I think thats what id like to try. Researched some Lundahl transformers and found alot of great info as well. With a nice case, cable and jacks ill end up ~200€. The LL9226 is a perfect fit with 3 gain settings if needed.
The whole system is only worth around 2500€, so i dont see any reason spending a few $ks for just the phonostage.
https://www.lundahltransformers.com/moving-coil-input/
http://www.kandkaudio.com/applications-guide/
http://mh-audio.nl/Calculators/StepUpTransformer.html
The whole system is only worth around 2500€, so i dont see any reason spending a few $ks for just the phonostage.
https://www.lundahltransformers.com/moving-coil-input/
http://www.kandkaudio.com/applications-guide/
http://mh-audio.nl/Calculators/StepUpTransformer.html
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markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Sounds like a plan. I think what we all hope to ideally find is what works right and best in "our" system, and not worry so much how it sounds in somebody else's.
And I think we all hope to "get away with murder" so to speak, in that we find our own personal joy without the need of spending a lot of extra "wasted" money.
Such as an example, how much good would it do, if I went out and spent $12,000US on a Phono Stage, and I cannot hear much difference, if any, from my existing Phono Stage? Or the rest of my analog chain falls short sonically, and worthy with this supposed big jump in a component, and expenditure of cash?
I thus spent money which likely could've been used to better effect somewhere else in my system. Sort of a logical way to go about it, many toss cash to the wind, and have gotten nowhere fast personally. A merry go round Carosel.
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trainbuftony
Electron Herder
It's going to be difficult to beat your Onkyo for $300, but if you're open to diy it can be done.
I've got a real sweet schematic worked out that you can build with ~$5-600 in parts.
It's worth a try. You'll have something you will want to keep for the rest of your life because it sounds great and you built it.
PM me, I can pass along the schematics if you're interested and I'll do my best to walk you through it.
I've got a real sweet schematic worked out that you can build with ~$5-600 in parts.
It's worth a try. You'll have something you will want to keep for the rest of your life because it sounds great and you built it.
PM me, I can pass along the schematics if you're interested and I'll do my best to walk you through it.
