Sieb Mulder
New Member
What would be more important? Setting the switches on your system in a political correct way or listening to your music the way you enjoy? I know the answer...
moewillis
just to recap, i love recapping
i agree. its what sounds good to the individual. i do feel like my tastes have been a little refined and i have moved away from a totally booming, muddy style bass...
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
It isn't about political correctness. It's about better gear, room and sound. Like moewillis at one time I used tone controls and loudness all the time. When I got an ARC SP-3 in 1980 I pretty much stopped using tone controls and used only the variable loudness. But then, I had an analog equalizer and various other gadgets. The SP-3 enabled me to hear the veiling and loss of sound quality those gadgets caused. Once the deleterious effects of those gadgets are heard you can't un-hear them. So the gadgets went to the closet where they still are today.
Not using something is a choice that some make. We don't care if you use "whatever" however you want. We think our "rigs" sound better without those gadgets and devices (tone controls, effects boxes, etc.) so we don't use them.
Chris Brown
Super Member
I don't use "loudness", although the variable loudness on my Yamaha preamp is better than most. I think it's a fine feature, and I'm certainly not a purest. I just prefer to make more intricate adjustments via EQ when necessary.
not every listening room needs the same EQ as each other though
StimpyWan
Addicted Member
You act like no one else knows this. That's a very incorrect assumption.
One of the reasons that I dearly miss magazines like Audio, and Stereo Review, was that they had articles concerning the science of sound. The science of Acoustics. While not always the most interesting read, it was still a good read, as these articles attempted to educate their readers, on how to achieve good sound. And that good sound wasn't always about the equipment.
Another odd thing about these science articles; they were often repeatedly published, from year to year. I always thought if odd, until I realized that new readers may not have always read all of the earlier articles. That repetition was a helpful learning tool as well. So, while I stated something that was obvious to some, it may not have been obvious to all. That once again, maybe repetition can be a helpful learning tool?
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JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
This discussion really has nothing to do with equalizing for room acoustics or speaker inadequacies. A loudness control's purpose is to compensate for the ears varying frequency sensitivity to different sound levels.
The good thing about variable loudness is that it's volume dependent. Equalizers are not. What sounds right at 85dB probably doesn't at 65dB and vice versa. When I used an equalizer with a preamp that had variable loudness I used a meter and test tones to measure and adjust at my highest listening level. I used the loudness control to lower the volume from my personal maximum. My only reason for ever having an equalizer was for room Eq. I never used it as a constantly tweaked device. Measure twice and set once was my method.
Once again, repetition can be a helpful learning tool.
My comment was actually for savatage.
StimpyWan
Addicted Member
A very, very good point! An important issue as well.
I had a buddy, from my CD/DVD replication days, leave the company, and land a job as an audio mastering engineer. Kand'a an apprenticeship position, as he learned his skills. Well, one thing he was having trouble with, was listening to mixes loud enough. He'd think his mastering was good, and still get busted by his boss, for EQ issues. Too much EQ. It seems he was listening too low, and EQ'ing too heavily. Those dreaded Fletcher-Munson curves rearing their ugly heads again...!
My comment was actually for savatage.
It's all good!
This discussion really has nothing to do with equalizing for room acoustics or speaker inadequacies. A loudness control's purpose is to compensate for the ears varying frequency sensitivity to different sound levels.
The good thing about variable loudness is that it's volume dependent. Equalizers are not. What sounds right at 85dB probably doesn't at 65dB and vice versa. When I used an equalizer with a preamp that had variable loudness I used a meter and test tones to measure and adjust at my highest listening level. I used the loudness control to lower the volume from my personal maximum. My only reason for ever having an equalizer was for room Eq. I never used it as a constantly tweaked device. Measure twice and set once was my method.
My comment was actually for savatage.
or a loudness switch is to bring out the frequencies in which get lost in not having enough volume for a given set of speakers in a given listening room? my loudness switch allows me to hear the song properly without having to crank it up to a level where you can hear it from outside my house.
id much rather have a loudness switch than none, you dont have to use it but it sure makes a big difference at low volumes.
there are rooms in my house where i wouldnt need the loudness then there is the room im in that needs it.
a loudness control's purpose is pretty self explanatory... bump up EQ lost in low volumes to fill out the sound.
if i had 5000 dollars for a set of speakers, i may not need the loudness switch. my speakers were 300 dollars for the pair though so a 4700 dollar difference is worth using loudness at least IMO
im sure a 5000 dollar pair of speakers would blow mine out of the water in every aspect of sound but my loudness controls on my gear work good for me. as long as i have my eq adjusted accordingly to not be overpowering with bass, i dont hear a loss in imaging or detail but the soundstage is a lot bigger
ill keep using loudness when necessary because sometimes it is
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
I really think it's just fine and dandy whatever folks do to get sound they like. I am not sure why "minimalist" sounds matter-of-fact, but "purist" sounds snooty, but I am definitely a minimalist these days. I seldom used tone controls, and never used loudness, and will never, ever use a graphic equalizer either, but if others do, that is fine.
The most unusual thing to me is that my loudspeakers or my ears seem to make Fletcher and Munson into liars - I seem to have full sound at 60 dBA, or even less. Strange, but not B.S.!
The most unusual thing to me is that my loudspeakers or my ears seem to make Fletcher and Munson into liars - I seem to have full sound at 60 dBA, or even less. Strange, but not B.S.!
Longaevus
Active Member
Pretty good points so far, from the more technical to the more practical. I guess that at the end of the day each ones ears are the judges, some need loudness in their lives, others do not, interesting for sure...
I gotta say that some 3 or 4 years ago, when I started exploring vintage audio, I was a fan of the loudness switch on my 2238, don't ask me why but that little switch made everything sound better at any volume. I guess the added bass brings the warmth so many of us feel captivated by.
I gotta say that some 3 or 4 years ago, when I started exploring vintage audio, I was a fan of the loudness switch on my 2238, don't ask me why but that little switch made everything sound better at any volume. I guess the added bass brings the warmth so many of us feel captivated by.
le greque
One Louder
I'm a firm believer in "if it sounds good to you, do it". For some music, equipment, and room combinations, the loudness curve pleases my ears. For other setups, it doesn't. There are lots of arguments on both sides ie purity/accuracy in reproduction and the FM curve science (which is why we have this option on lots of gear to begin with). The older I've gotten though, the more I've realized that with stuff like this, where there is really no incontrovertible argument one way or the other, the personal answer is very simple. Do you think whatever you are doing sounds good? Does it bring you some form of happiness, satisfaction, or pleasure? Then that is as far as you need to go, you have your answer, no matter what user vintagueaudiorules69 thinks about it. They are your ears, after all...
i think a lot of it has to do with my speakers having passive radiators. the loudness really reverberates the radiators to the bass guitar in a way that cant happen without loudness or a lot of volume/bass eq.
at high volumes "close to where loudness is a bad thing" if you turn off loudness and get your bass matched to the volume it does sound better/cleaner/more precise. but down low it doesnt seem to miss anything
at high volumes "close to where loudness is a bad thing" if you turn off loudness and get your bass matched to the volume it does sound better/cleaner/more precise. but down low it doesnt seem to miss anything
StimpyWan
Addicted Member
Check for air leaks. That, and inspect all the surrounds for cracks/splits/lifting, and make sure the mounting screws are tight.
A passive radiator design, is a bass reflex speaker, that requires a sealed cabinet. So, if it has leaks, bass response will suffer.
Also, the passive radiator tuning could be wrong/off. Pull one of the radiators, and check to see if weights were added on back. If not, you could experiment with small washers, or lead shot, even rope putty, to add weight, to tune the speakers. The weight will change the cabinet resonance frequency, and might shift it's bass response enough, to be more audible at low levels.
Bassblaster
Super Member
always. never shut it off
