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Early Wharfedale W70's - Biggles' dream is realized!

I'm anticipating that I may have to leave the room in a hurry :D

OTOH some EDM or DuB step or bass head anything or anthing outside of polite 60's rock can seriusly hurt those old gals especially all that in digital my W70D's could barely take Fleetwwod MAC on vinyl at 32wpc they were getting taxed at any elevated levels but they sounded plenty OK and all just not hot mids and highs or muscle head bass and NO impact bass they are more polite than anything IMO and my 80wpc SX980 [not even cranked] fried them (in a few minutes) so it wasnt a lack of power :)

[Takes deep breath]

It's OK. I said I wasn't gonna' get mad......... And I'm not mad...

......................

I need a moment...

............................

They say it's moments like this that reveal our true.. um...... Ah, damn it.

Boy, are you ever gonna' hear it from Crestwood23. :D

Aren't the W70D's only rated for 50wpc? 80wpc cranked into a pair of 48 year old speakers is a lot. I hope you don't go stress-testing like that with old Western Electric drivers or early '60's Altecs. Wharfedales from the early '60's are over 50 years old, and they're surrounds are generally still good, unlike bass titans such as the AR9's from much later. And they NEED tubes if you ask me. A 9090 Sansui or one of the G series models (or even better, the integrated and separates models from either period) is just not going to make them sing the way a quality tube rig from the '60's will. I honestly couldn't say why, other than it might simply be a case of era-equivalency, but they prefer tubes, plain and simple. A modern Adcom will make them just sit there and poop themselves.

Anywho, ...
 
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Originally Posted by zerorectify
I'm anticipating that I may have to leave the room in a hurry

OTOH some EDM or DuB step or bass head anything or anthing outside of polite 60's rock can seriusly hurt those old gals especially all that in digital my W70D's could barely take Fleetwwod MAC on vinyl at 32wpc they were getting taxed at any elevated levels but they sounded plenty OK and all just not hot mids and highs or muscle head bass and NO impact bass they are more polite than anything IMO and my 80wpc SX980 [not even cranked] fried them (in a few minutes) so it wasnt a lack of power



[Takes deep breath]

It's OK. I said I wasn't gonna' get mad......... And I'm not mad...

......................

I need a moment...

............................

They say it's moments like this that reveal our true.. um...... Ah, damn it.

Boy, are you ever gonna' hear it from Crestwood23. :D

Well its all true and it didnt take much to fry them but they are real nice and rather storied and interesting collector pieces far better the the avarage in that respect...... and they dont sound horrible they are what they are .

I likley know all this as good as anyone and probably spent more money than most getting the drivers *correctly* freshened up (completley re coned) indistiguishable from the origional not cheap ...AND the alinco magnets re charged like any serious collector would instead of finding used parts or what.....ever or turning them upside down not to mention I had them for 20 -24 yrs how long you had your 90's and if you havent recharged the Alnicios they are over due btw? .

You probably know some of the Asia (and probably other ) market warfies were inteteresting with the local importers and custom cabinet builds outside of the Warfdale shops because a lot of them were exported without the cabinets .

Another thing ouside of an antique radio why would anyome beat speakers or even use them for hi fi ouside of *very occasionaly* with 50 yr old paper cones, spyders , coils and discharged alincos and and expect them to sound like they were new or accept anything ,less unless you guys are kidding your selves about being seroius collectors othewise .

TBH these are one of the (few speakers) out there that one could justifiably collect and refurbish *the right way* and spend the money to have the drivers done right if they can still find the correct materials that is ! OTOH you have to have realistic expectaions for 50 yr old British speakers or its all for naught same for a 59 MGA they are what they are .
 
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Well its all true and it didnt take much to fry them but they are real nice and rather storied and interesting collector pieces far better the the avarage in that respect...... and they dont sound horrible they are what they are and I likley know this as good as anyone and probably spent more money than most getting the drivers freshened up AND the alinco magnets re charged like any serious collector would instead of finding used parts or what.....ever or turning them upside down not to mention I had them for 20 -24 yrs how long you had your 90's and if you havent recharged the Alnicios they are over due btw? .

Some of the Asia (and probably other ) market warfies were inteteresting with the local importers and custom cabinet builds outside of the Warfdale shops .

I have a hard time with horns. Something like the Valencia or even the A7 would be too much for me, too forward (Wharfedales aren't finicky about room-size, by design actually). The large '60's DO have clear, coherent mids and highs. But they are VERY-dependent on placement. With the distances measured spot-on, plus some quality tube gear like a Fisher, Scott, Marantz, Dynaco, Leak, etc., they will shed their cabinets. I known because I've heard it. But you have to cater to them a bit. I wasn't going to bring it up, but another AK'er with early '60's W90's was using biamped JBL L300's (seriously-upgraded L300's at that), and he pulled the tube rig (a Marantz 8b with a VERY-nice modern tube preamp) off of the L300's mids/highs and hooked that up to the W90's, and he hasn't looked back since. The JBL's had the better extension, but he said they just don't hold up to the W90's in that core frequency range (OR his AR9's for that matter, plus a list of other high-end holy grail speakers he's heard that I won't even get into). And others have heard that setup and confirmed. The old Wharfedales need synergy. I wish I knew why, but with those speakers, not all power is equal. And not all capacitors either.

Did your W70D's have the purple tweeters? Those early purple tweets had issues with being overdriven, something about the glue failing and the diaphragm/membrane (or whatever) coming apart, so it wouldn't surprise me about 80wpc taking them out. The MKII purple tweeters were drop-in replacements that help up better.

But Wharfedales aren't dragsters. They're cruising vessels. Meant to be laid-back-sounding. But I wouldn't choose anything else for old Zeppelin, Beatles, Stones, James Brown, Tower Of Power, Isaac Hayes, etc, because that's the sort of music I like. Older blues stuff, jazz-fusion, funk. I have never heard horn instruments sound so real as they do through a pair of W90's (the early to mid '60's ones with cone-tweeters), and MANY others agree on this. Not just real-sounding, but SPOOKY-real, and clear and coherent.
 
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I use my 70's for only critical listening and absolutely love them.... sure, they may come up up thin on some recordings, but that's why I have preamp with tonal controls. As for volume, I can barely get a quarter way on the volume knob.... without having to back down (plenty of noise will come out of them if you crank them). Last listener I had over (during 4th of July) said it sounded like he was listening to music with headphones on..... his exact words were " no need for headphones with these speakers " - to each is own.... I think placement and the room is just important as the speakers themselves.... and that goes for all speakers....
-just my 2cents... ec : )

They only seem to come up thin-sounding on mid to late '80's music, which is kinda the fault of the music. It needs a bass-forward speaker to compensate for the sound of the recordings. I mean, what were they thinking when they mixed "Master Of Puppetry" and "... And Justice For All"'? The drums sound like cardboard, and I'm STILL not convinced that the bass-players were even in the same STATE on those two recordings.

Sorry... Had to throw that one out there... I'd want bass-centric speakers too (and I love those albums).
 
I have a hard time with horns. Something like the Valencia or even the A7 would be too much for me, too forward (Wharfedales aren't finicky about room-size, by design actually). The large '60's DO have clear, coherent mids and highs. But they are VERY-dependent on placement. With the distances measured spot-on, plus some quality tube gear like a Fisher, Scott, Marantz, Dynaco, Leak, etc., they will shed their cabinets. I known because I've heard it. But you have to cater to them a bit. I wasn't going to bring it up, but another AK'er with early '60's W90's was using biamped JBL L300's (seriously-upgraded L300's at that), and he pulled the tube rig (a Marantz 8b with a VERY-nice modern tube preamp) off of the L300's mids/highs and hooked that up to the W90's, and he hasn't looked back since. The JBL's had the better extension, but he said they just don't hold up to the W90's in that core frequency range (OR his AR9's for that matter, plus a list of other high-end holy grail speakers he's heard that I won't even get into). And others have heard that setup and confirmed. The old Wharfedales need synergy. I wish I knew why, but with those speakers, not all power is equal. And not all capacitors either.

I never liked The A7 or Valencia the model 19 and 14 were the Altecs to have ( I had 19's ) and some folks swear by the smaler model 14's I thoght the L300 components in a much larger custom cabinet were fine though much better than the stock cabinet my best friend had a set in custom cabs about 6' tall built to JBL plans those things were decent and very bif I'm talking referigerator big .

Did your W70D's have the purple tweeters? Those early purple tweets had issues with being overdriven, something about the glue failing and the diaphragm/membrane (or whatever) coming apart, so it wouldn't surprise me about 80wpc taking them out. The MKII purple tweeters were drop-in replacements that help up better.

The dreaded purple things . I replaced them with some nice Scan Speak textile domes big improvement.
Heard lots of good cone tweeters including the four in my Bose 301 IV's out back I like bigger cone tweeters better though cones rool off smooth sometimes

I had all the other drivers re done and the alnicos charged I dont know if they could find the OE style materials now took them 3 months
to turn them around and that was almost 30 yrs ago,

But Wharfedales aren't dragsters. They're cruising vessels. Meant to be laid-back-sounding. But I wouldn't choose anything else for old Zeppelin, Beatles, Stones, James Brown, Tower Of Power, Isaac Hayes, etc, because that's the sort of music I like. Older blues stuff, jazz-fusion, funk. I have never heard horn instruments sound so real as they do through a pair of W90's (the early to mid '60's ones with cone-tweeters), and MANY others agree on this. Not just real-sounding, but SPOOKY-real, and clear and coherent.[/QUOTE]

Just like I said comfy criusers nice looking also and you can bring them home to the family and pass them down no less how many speakers can you do that with ?

If nothing else aside from the limitations we all know the big Warfies W70/W90 are both endearing and enduring at the same time like a favortite auntie at tea time or the queen mother how many speakers can you say that about ?

I never owned 90's (wanted to )I heard them in a Pac Stereo store used on something or another they sounded good could hsve been one of those king sized BIC tube recievers with rack handles but it was tubes .

I'm not a warfie hater at all exactly the oppisite but I learned thier limitatins the hard way and I'm aware of the w70D's sonic limitations .


OTOH with the media back when they were made they werent consterained much its all different now and a lot of that old media (vinyl) was very good .

There is nothing like it today other than needledrops or flat master copys and I enjoy the digital replications of that .

Priobably sound great on a vintage warfie and a mac 240 or 225 and one of those wouldent be out of place pushing the warfies .

In bet vintage warfies would be good with a powerd sub pr two I'm sold on powred Subs there are 6 here all in all and they do what needs to be done on music without being overbearing or directionally identifiable you have to set things right but its not hard they are invisibe if you set them right most people run them way too hot like I did when I was a sub woofer newbie .

IOW you want them to totally dissapear in the room on music but if you set them right they can blow your mind with some decent speakers , speakers cant do what they do they just cant .Even the $20K JBL master refernce monitors cant do what a powered sub can in a confined space and if you finesse them it pays off thats the key . I heard my fist dub in 82 or so befiore any body evet heasrd of them didntb get ant toll 95 stuoid me .

I heard them at reistance repair in berkley if know who they were you know thats the best way ton decribe them they could get rare JBL alnicos or whatever you wanted on the planet for a price they were more like concierge than sales folks and prices to match but the best stuff not nonsense expensive .
 
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Probably not the case, but wouldn't it be a trip if "R" was Raymond Cooke? He WAS working there as Technical Director at the time (late '55 to mid '61). The book I bought has a few company pictures from various divisions with names listed, so maybe I can narrow it down at some point. That book has at least one picture of Cooke's signature, so I can at least compare the R's and get that one out of the way (And I'll see if it lists the W70's cabinet volume/displacement... It has it listed for the W60, that much I know).

That would be pretty awesome. Take a look when you can, I'd be interested to know. That R looks pretty nice, not from someone just scribbling as a driver would have been moving down a line.

I completely understand the reasons to buy new or nearly new speakers and equipment, I get it. Electronics age, mechanical portions wear, magnets drift, but most of all, technology marches on. This is why anyone with half a brain buys a modern car, modern camera and of course buys a flat panel television.

I absolutely love the hunt of a pair of old speakers. Searching, culling through hundreds of ads, talking to everyone I meet about it. I've met so many great people while searching for old speakers. Some of which I still talk to on a weekly basis, they tend to be really great human beings. Once I get home, inspecting, digging through the speaker's guts? It's like finding gold, or trash. It's such a thrill! If I find something that interests me (this rarely has anything to do with what the internet says), I can put together a game plan on how to bring back the loudspeakers to usable condition. I get to buy Danish Oil, paint, sand paper, rags, brushes, and tons of really fun tools. My skills with restoring veneer and particle board has increased two fold. This has lead to being able to transfer my skill set over to restoring furniture too, it's awesome. My self worth, and self esteem has grown ten fold over the last 5 years. Honestly though, I've never really lacked those two things. But it's still a nice feeling.

If I were to buy new speakers I'd require few tools, no finish products, I would have never met the people I know today. I would have never known the love of watching old veneer come to life under multiple coats of hand-rubbed Danish Oil. The joy of listening to success when I completed a project, or the defeat of restoring a sonic turd. The heart pounding thrill of finishing up a capacitor upgrade to hear the old gal sing once again and become a useful member of society to be enjoyed for years to come! This my good people, is why I choose old speakers. It's fun, and I love it dearly.

xo, Biggles
 
@ zerorectify:

The Super 3 cone-tweeter, the one in my avatar picture, has something special about it that I have yet to hear from another brand/model tweeter, something which adds to it's smooth, irresistible nature, and that is, it has the Midas touch with all things distortion-related. It somehow makes it all sound smooth and palatable. I'm not talking about rolloff here. The alnico cone mids and woofers (the ones with the red-banded magnet structure) have this quality too. Albums like Hendrix's "Smash Hits" and "Led Zeppelin II" sound deliciously-good despite their recorded flaws. "You Can't Always Get What You Want" from "Let It Bleed" will send chills up your spine, it sounds so spooky-real (That's actually the best-sounding album in my collection).

Anyway, that's the same tweeter in his W70's. It's a very-high-flux design. Wharfedales always had great magnet structures, certainly in the late '50's and early to mid '60's. They had the same magnet supplier going all the way back to 1932 when the company was founded. Swift-Levick supplied all their magnets at least as far as the mid '60's and probably the late '60's.

Wharfedale supplied the BBC with drivers for at least twenty years, starting in the late '30's ((I believe KEF took over from Wharfedale, possibly as a result of Raymond Cooke's employment at the BBC back in 1954-'55 just prior to joining Wharfedale... KEF was founded in '61 when Cooke left Wharfedale to start his own company with the son of the retiring owner of Kent Engineering & Foundry... I think that's what KEF stands for). I guess my point is that Wharfedale and KEF, along with Goodmans, Quad, and Tannoy, were all swimming in the same high-end British pond. The only reason Wharfedale was priced lower was that Gilbert Briggs was very-adamant about quality and good value for one's money. Their speakers were VERY-popular in both Europe AND the US.

I haven't owned the W70's, but I do own numerous W60-types as well as my W90's, and it seems that, the better the amp quality (tube amps), the more you can get out of them. They're capable of a serious amount of depth, which was a surprise to me, at least as far as how MUCH depth. Like I said, they just get better and better, the more you put into them in terms of upstream gear quality.

My W90's don't have the purple tweeters. The W90D has the woofers sharing the same space, unlike the earlier versions, which have the woofers subdivided in separate, isolated sub-enclosures. Also, the W90D has the mids and tweeters in that same space as well, with just those cup-isolators on the backs of the mids. The earlier W90's have the mids and tweeters in their own upper compartment, separate from the woofer section, and that must surely make a difference. Also, the W90D had that lowboy-style cabinet while the earlier ones were highboys. I don't know, maybe lowboy models were in or something, but not necessarily my thing. I bet they sound great, but I prefer the look and sound of my highboys.

And yes, I love to see the old Wharfedales up and running again. The company and it's founder have quite a history and legacy. The speakers they used for the legendary "live versus recorded" demonstration events had the same voicing as their early '60's drivers. And me being a rabid Isaac Hayes fan, I wouldn't choose anything else for his classic albums and movie soundtracks.
 
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Good Morning!

I know a user here at AK, maybe a year or two ago, put up a thread regarding measuring T/S parameters. At the time, they were capable of taking these measurements and offering up a free service where we could send in a driver and they would do it. It was for fun and to see if they/we could get a list of T/S parameters for drivers that had no such data available. If I remember correctly, the thread got kinda muddled and it never took off. Does anyone remember who this person was?

Biggles
 
It was dc270, see post 12.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=637647

I would check the tinsel leads, they may appear good but a re-solder won't hurt them.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=408296

Dang, you're like all up in there an junk. That wasn't the thread I was talking about, but it's darned close enough. I sent off a nice PM to dc270. He was last on earlier this morning, so that's cool.

I floated fresh solder on the tweeter and woofer tinsel wires over the weekend. I don't think I hit the mids though. I'm going to have both boxes open this afternoon, making some "adjustments". I'll have a look and double check tinsel action then.

We rule.

Biggles

EDIT: I stand corrected, Doctorolds. Post #13 by Copa was what I was referring to. Sorry!
 
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I was probably editing while you were reading it, no biggie. Place the ohm meter on the driver and move the leads around some, if your reading changes they are definitely bad. You said you re-soldered so that should rule that out.
 
I was probably editing while you were reading it, no biggie. Place the ohm meter on the driver and move the leads around some, if your reading changes they are definitely bad. You said you re-soldered so that should rule that out.

Yup yup, I can do that!

I just heard back from dc270. I'm going to send him a tweeter, a mid and a woofer. He's going to measure the speakers, then design a crossover. Am planning on getting them on the UPS truck by Wednesday.

Forward progress, yo.

Biggles
 
tweeter is a Super 3 correct?

Would be interested in any case in the results of this testing.

I think I have one purple donut that could possibly be saved. I'd be willing to send that if dc270 thinks he can glue it back together and test it. It does have one small crack in the mylar though so I don't know if that would be 100% accurate. The other is permanently screwed, no hope there. I would really like to know the parameters, impedance, etc. of the purple donuts to see if I guessed well for a modern replacement. I looked for info and just couldn't find it.
 
tweeter is a Super 3 correct?

Would be interested in any case in the results of this testing.

I think I have one purple donut that could possibly be saved. I'd be willing to send that if dc270 thinks he can glue it back together and test it. It does have one small crack in the mylar though so I don't know if that would be 100% accurate. The other is permanently screwed, no hope there. I would really like to know the parameters, impedance, etc. of the purple donuts to see if I guessed well for a modern replacement. I looked for info and just couldn't find it.

Hay,

I wouldn't bother with that specific tweeter then. You'd want to use a known good and solid unit to test with. Previously in this entire thread, go back to last Thursday evening, there's a mention by GT about a guy who had rebuild his W90's, I believe. He sourced and found a modern replacement, look for that one.

Yeah, mine are the big, gold Alnico Super 3's.

I'm excited!

Biggles
 
Yup yup, I can do that!

I just heard back from dc270. I'm going to send him a tweeter, a mid and a woofer. He's going to measure the speakers, then design a crossover. Am planning on getting them on the UPS truck by Wednesday.

Forward progress, yo.

Biggles

Just a thought, why not send one of your ceramic tweeters along for the ride also for comparison to the Alnico.
 
tweeter is a Super 3 correct?

Would be interested in any case in the results of this testing.

I think I have one purple donut that could possibly be saved. I'd be willing to send that if dc270 thinks he can glue it back together and test it. It does have one small crack in the mylar though so I don't know if that would be 100% accurate. The other is permanently screwed, no hope there. I would really like to know the parameters, impedance, etc. of the purple donuts to see if I guessed well for a modern replacement. I looked for info and just couldn't find it.

Duh, that was you. Nevermind. I'm sure you did just fine with your replacement of the tweeter. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Biggles
 
Duh, that was you. Nevermind. I'm sure you did just fine with your replacement of the tweeter. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Biggles

I'm not losing sleep just don't have the equipment to verify what my ears tell me. It seems to pass, everyone in the house has pretty much abandoned the HT rig and will even watch TV upstairs now where the Wharfedales are. That's pretty high praise I think as the HT rig is pretty good mid-fi IMHO and has a great sub.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk
 
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