Econowave Help Needed

[loaded]

I'm finally committing to an Econowave project. I have built up 2 bookshelf speaker kits but have always wanted to build up something from scratch on the line of the old Model 19's, An efficient 2 way woofer/horn combo. Found the Econowave thread and was instantly hooked. This is my project. This is intended to be an ongoing project to learn and tinker with upgrades. To start out, I wanted to do a version of the Econowave Standard and then tweak and upgrade as I learn am more capable. In the end, years from now (wow), I hope to have a very nice set of speakers that will excel in a 2.1 hi fi system. In the short term, I hope the speakers offer an enjoyable experience but know there will be lots of room to improve. I learn best by doing and there is no way I am going to learn everything before I start building.

The plan is to box up the woofer in a 2.5 ft3 enclosure and mount the compression drivers on externally on top of the box with XO's so I can access them easily. I will use the Dayton D300-8 12" woofer and PRV D230ti compression drivers with the Dayton H6512. I have the compression drivers and Dayton Waveguides already. I have been working with these drivers in Xsim using the XO schematic Zilch posted in the Econowave Standard thread. I have Zilch's XO and response graph below for reference and my XO and response graphs. I tweaked Zilch's values a little to work with the PRV driver. However, I get a significant dip at the crossover point so I inverted the Tweeter and while better still looks wonky. I am at a point where it seems any tweaking makes no difference or worse. dB scale is set at 10db to match Zilch's.

I am not trying to get Zilch's exact response as I am sure he did his own measurements while I am using the manufacturer FRD/ZMA files.

So what can I do to make this better? Should I be approaching this in a different way?


Zilch's XO and FR Graph:


My XO and FR Graph (Last FR graph is with the tweeter inverted)

 

[EarlK]

If you post your Xsim file ( zipped ), I'll take a look at at and get back to you with some network mods.



EDIT: I just bought a pair of these ( here in Ontario ) > when they get here I'll lash them up to my H6512 and create some FRD & ZMA's for you ( probably in a week from now ).

- ( In the meantime ), it looks somewhat like you used frd+zma's from PRV's WG230Ti combo.

If that's correct, then to optimize the performance of that specific combo, the following is the sort of circuit that's needed to force it into a linear response.

 

[Pete B]

The first question with regard to the dip, is how was the .frd file made with regard to driver depth position.
The simplest thing to do, is to get a good response shape for the horn rolloff, and passband. Then put
your woofer in any box that you have with the horn on top wired in reverse phase. Through the crossover
of course. Drive the system with
a sinewave at the crossover point and move the horn/WG forward and back until you obtain a deep null.
Wire the horn in-phase and check the overall frequency response.

You mention 2.1, so you plan to use a sub? I ask because you don't need to run a big box for the
mains if the system will always be used with a sub. You can put a 12" in an old Advent box for experiments.

Do you need super high efficiency, plans for 5-10W to drive them or way more?

I learn the same way, by doing, just having trouble lately finding the time.

Do you have an RTA app for your phone?
I take it that you have a PC since you're running Xsim?
Here's a function generator that works for the PC to let you drive it with a sine at the XO point:

Free PC Based Sinewave Generator Software

Every 5 or 10 years I look for an AP like this and I'm amazed by how many do not work. Most here have probably heard of Marchand electronics, well they have a very simple one that works. It is at the center of this page, click on fg_lite.exe to download it: https://www.marchandelec.com/fg.html...

audiokarma.org

It will be great to see files from EarlK, you're in good hands.

If you both post your Xsim projects I'll try to follow along. I'm thinking of buying either the D230ti or
the DE250 but first I have to finish some other projects.

 

[loaded]

Thanks Earl! I have the Xsim file (zipped) attached. let me know if need anything further to help.

 

[loaded]

Hey Pete!

was hoping you would jump in. To answer your question the FRD file for the Dayton is from the manufacturer downloaded on Parts Express. PRV does not offer FRD/ZMA files so I used FP Tracer to create the FRD/ZMA files from the manufacturer Frequency and Impedance graphs found on the PRV website.

You mention 2.1, so you plan to use a sub? I ask because you don't need to run a big box for the
mains if the system will always be used with a sub. You can put a 12" in an old Advent box for experiments.

I will only run a sub if needed. I would prefer not to but okay using a sub if needed. I'm not a big bass head and prefer musical low end. Not for home theater, music only.

Do you need super high efficiency, plans for 5-10W to drive them or way more?

For now I am okay with not as efficient as I would be using a 30 watt amp and I usually listen in the 75 to 85dB range. But, a future project will be a SET tube amp so eventually efficiency will be welcomed.

Do you have an RTA app for your phone? Yes... but is there a preferred app?

I take it that you have a PC since you're running Xsim? Mac, I use a virtual machine to run windows programs

It will be great to see files from EarlK, you're in good hands. Thank you!

If you both post your Xsim projects I'll try to follow along. attached, available now

I'm thinking of buying either the D230ti or the DE250 but first I have to finish some other projects. Hoping the D230's work out but plan to upgrade eventually. So mad that I sold my La Scala's when I moved a couple of years ago and forgot to take out the DE250's I installed. Can't afford that now

 

[Pete B]

Have you bought the woofers and started the boxes for them? No pressure but I'll think
about alternatives if not.

I've not run an RTA phone app but maybe others can make a suggestion, iPhone?
You don't need anything super accurate since you want to "get in the ballpark" to start.

 

[loaded]

I have not ordered the woofers... wanted to be sure I could get a good XO with the D230ti's first. I have an Iphone and have a couple of RTA apps that I've only used for monitoring spl's.

 

[EarlK]

@loaded

I looked at your file > the most egregious error found there is that you didn't enter in a distance ( for the acoustic offset > "AC" ) within the tweeter "tuning" section ( called "mod-delay" ).

I think that Zilch found 2.6" ( unfortunately expressed in meters within PCD ) was a pretty common measurement between the AC of the woofer and that of the d220Ti/H6512 combo ( when the woofer was mounted on the back of the baffle-board ). I'll leave it to you to suss that out by rereading the first few pages of his FLEX Your PCD Mettle Thread

Deriving the proper delay setting ( by doing some actual measurements ) is something you'll need to eventually do ( using REW on either a PC or a Mac , for instance ) with a test mic.

Personally, I wouldn't go through all the eWaving effort for such a low efficiency final-result ( plus the DC300 is peaky as all-get-out at the crossover region.

I would choose a more sensitive woofer with a smoother roll-off above 1K

 

[loaded]

EarlK, I updated my crossover in Xsim and your spec definitely works a lot better! I only tweaked R3 to to get the tweeter dB down to the woofer. Right about the the recommended 2000Hz XO point. Your's still looks flatter than mine? What project are you doing with the D230ti's?

 

[loaded]

Offset! I didn't realize I needed to do that yet. I'll review the Test Your Mettle info again. Regarding your comment on not using the D300, I never really wanted to use it but in the interest of simplicity given it was the driver used in the Standard version I thought I would go with it. I didn't want to go expensive too expensive... did you have any suggestions on adequate replacements? I have looked at some of the Eminence options in the Econowave variants. Would love to go Faital Pro or B&C but those are not happening anytime soon. I looked at the Dayton PA310 but didn't like the way it modeled in Winisd. without the Daytons, I'm getting into the $150 range per driver.

I already have REW saved but haven't used yet since I don't have a mic yet. Was going to get to that later on. But it was definitely on the road map.

 

[EarlK]

@loaded

Right now I don't have any specific use for the newly bought PRV 230Ti's >> I have some general interest in them ( pure curiosity ) since they are an inexpensive driver with a lot of Selenium design DNA behind them. Multiples might work as high-output tweeter arrays for EDM//Dance-Clubs.

Here's one kick-at-the-can ( using the small horned WG230Ti combo > which is where your frd+zma files appear to have their origin ).
- The following is simply an example as to what it takes to to hammer this little horn driver/combo into a more linear response.

 

[Pete B]

I have the PA310 and was unable to get real bass out of it even with EQ, maybe I'll go back to it one day.
I don't have any in mind but will look around at alternatives, might want to look at GRS, the big 15" makes
some deep bass and is $60. I can take a look at the 12" also when I have some time.

An RTA will tell you if you are roughly correct on the crossover.

You can see that EarlK got your crossover fixed but the 6X12" should be a much better choice.

 

[Rick Owen]

@loaded

Right now I don't have any specific use for the newly bought PRV 230Ti's >> I just some general interest in them ( pure curiosity ) since they are an inexpensive driver with a lot of Selenium design DNA behind them. Multiples could work as tweeter arrays for EDM//Dance-Clubs.

Here's one kick-at-the-can ( using the small horned WG230Ti combo > which is where your frd files came from ).
- This is simply an example as to what it takes to to hammer this little driver combo into a more linear response.

View attachment 3268641

On sale right now on amazon for less than $25 ea

 

[Pete B]

How can you resist? Showing up as $30 even logged in with Prime.
They say that prices can be dependent on what browser you are using, yes it is true.

 

[Pete B]

@EarlK Have you heard anything about the Peerless DFM-2544R00 that's in stock at PE?
The smaller one is NLA so I wonder if these are just what's left in stock, or will there be new production?

Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 Ohm

Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 OhmThe Peerless DFM-2544R00-08 1" exit compression driver with 1-3/4" diaphragm is for use in high fidelity professional sound reinforcement systems. Peerless designed the magnet system for high sensitivity while keeping the weight...

www.parts-express.com

It is a larger VC version of the one that tested well and was liked here.

Also, any opinion on Lavoce CD drivers?

 

[Rick Owen]

How can you resist? Showing up as $30 even logged in with Prime.
They say that prices can be dependent on what browser you are using, yes it is true.

Amazon.com: PRV Audio PRO Compression Driver with Horn (WG230TI) : Musical Instruments

Buy PRV Audio PRO Compression Driver with Horn (WG230TI): Monitor, Speaker & Subwoofer Parts - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[EarlK]

Also, any opinion on Lavoce CD drivers?

or Peerless DFM-2544R00 ???

Nope ( on the Lavoce ).

Damped ( with a plastic coating ) titanium diaphragms ( JBL or Peerless ) all sound good to my ears ( as a type they really rival the aluminum diaphragms that I prefer ) so the DFM 2544R00-8 could be a winner ( sadly, here in Canada that driver becomes a $150.00 touch once landed > meaning, I'm not likely going to try it out ).

 

[Pete B]

Amazon.com: PRV Audio PRO Compression Driver with Horn (WG230TI) : Musical Instruments

Buy PRV Audio PRO Compression Driver with Horn (WG230TI): Monitor, Speaker & Subwoofer Parts - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Cheaper with the horn! But I think I prefer the bolt on version, hmmm.
I want to try it on the xt1086 and maybe a few others, but perhaps I should get it for the 8x8" JBL
which is screw mount. Hard to pass that up.

 

[Rick Owen]

@loaded

Right now I don't have any specific use for the newly bought PRV 230Ti's >> I have some general interest in them ( pure curiosity ) since they are an inexpensive driver with a lot of Selenium design DNA behind them. Multiples might work as high-output tweeter arrays for EDM//Dance-Clubs.

Here's one kick-at-the-can ( using the small horned WG230Ti combo > which is where your frd+zma files appear to have their origin ).
- The following is simply an example as to what it takes to to hammer this little horn driver/combo into a more linear response.

View attachment 3268641

Anyway to get that CD to play nice with a DC380-8 15"

 

[EarlK]

Anyway to get that CD to play nice with a DC380-8 15"

Nope ( or I highly doubt it ).

15" woofers, really ought to have a max crossover point of about 1K >> even the larger PRV d280Ti rolls off steeply by 1500hz ( no matter the horn size ).
- See below;




Remember, I just ordered a pair of PRV d230Ti's ( so don't have any of my measurements to share yet ).

The Selenium d220Ti is a much better candidate for a low crossover point ( obviously on a horn that can support it )
- Here's a Zilch-generated traces on an Altec 811b horn showing it's low-end reach.