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Econowave Help Needed

EarlK said:
Nope ( or I highly doubt it ).

15" woofers, really ought to have a max crossover point of about 1K >> even the larger PRV d280Ti rolls off steeply by 1500hz ( no matter the horn size ).
- See below;

View attachment 3268937


Remember, I just ordered a pair of PRV d230Ti's ( so don't have any of my measurements to share yet ).

The Selenium d220Ti is a much better candidate for a low crossover point ( obviously on a horn that can support it )
- Here's a Zilch-generated traces on an Altec 811b horn showing it's low-end reach.

View attachment 3268954

:)
Click to expand...

I agree, I was hoping to find something that could do 800 hz. I just don't have a clue how different horns effect CD response.
Everything keeps brining me back to the Eminence N314T-8 or N320T-8 but ouch on price. Hoping to catch them on sale soon.
 
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As speaker "surplus" expenses go, you're sitting good. There is about no other place to dump vast amounts of cash and have a pile of drivers sitting around as with compression drivers. That little (~5" sq) horn is...not for an e-wave application. When making ewaves, use ewave drivers & horns :) Holding out for 90x50 is the right call IMO.
 
Pete B said:
I have the PA310 and was unable to get real bass out of it even with EQ, maybe I'll go back to it one day.
I don't have any in mind but will look around at alternatives, might want to look at GRS, the big 15" makes
some deep bass and is $60. I can take a look at the 12" also when I have some time.

An RTA will tell you if you are roughly correct on the crossover.

You can see that EarlK got your crossover fixed but the 6X12" should be a much better choice.
Click to expand...
I did look at the GRS 15PT-8 and I think it needed a huge box if I remember correctly. I want to keep the enclosures 3 f3. I have run the GRS 12PT-8 in Winisd and Xsim with better results than the Dayton D300. Might go revisit this one and swap out the D300 with the 12" GRS on EarlK's XO he provided. For the mean time, I'm going to wait for EarlK's findings/measurements on his D230ti's.
 
grindstone said:
As speaker "surplus" expenses go, you're sitting good. There is about no other place to dump vast amounts of cash and have a pile of drivers sitting around as with compression drivers. That little (~5" sq) horn is...not for an e-wave application. When making ewaves, use ewave drivers & horns :) Holding out for 90x50 is the right call IMO.
Click to expand...
Can't you just remove the horn and still have the compression driver for under $25?
 
That's not a very good horn, and I think you already have the Dayton, is that correct?
The Dayton is very decent, not sure about the bottom end but it will certainly go down
to 1.5KHz, maybe a bit lower. I hope that EarlK can test on the 6X12 horn.
There's also the ELX and XT1086 China clones.
 
Rick Owen said:
I agree, I was hoping to find something that could do 800 hz. I just don't have a clue how different horns effect CD response.
Everything keeps brining me back to the Eminence N314T-8 or N320T-8 but ouch on price. Hoping to catch them on sale soon.
Click to expand...

One needs to pay attention to the stated Fs of the horn driver > as given by the manufacturer.

If the stated ( raw ) Fs of the driver is below 800hz > then it's highly likely that on a big horn it'll generate some lower frequencies.
- ( IOW; compliance also matters for compression drivers, not just paper-coned mids and woofers ).

Unfortunately, the vast majority of these cheap $ 50.00 compression drivers don't provide much in the way of truly meaningful specs.
- Since PRV only sell weeny little horns > it's a pretty safe guess that most of their drivers aren't optimized for large horns ( that might be crossed below 1K ).

It's hard ( these days ) to find a small format/diaphragmed driver that will go lower than 1K ( ignoring the Tymphany Peerless offerings, which seem to be outliers ).

:)
 
Pete B said:
That's not a very good horn, and I think you already have the Dayton, is that correct?
The Dayton is very decent, not sure about the bottom end but it will certainly go down
to 1.5KHz, maybe a bit lower. I hope that EarlK can test on the 6X12 horn.
There's also the ELX and XT1086 China clones.
Click to expand...
Yes, I have the 6x12 JBL copy... but not the Dayton. I got the Chinese one you recommended to me Pete B.
 
EarlK said:
One needs to pay attention to the stated Fs of the horn driver > as given by the manufacturer.

If the stated ( raw ) Fs of the driver is below 800hz > then it's highly likely that on a big horn it'll generate some lower frequencies.
- ( IOW; compliance also matters for compression drivers, not just paper-coned mids and woofers ).

Unfortunately, the vast majority of these cheap $ 50.00 compression drivers don't provide much in the way of truly meaningful specs.
- Since PRV only sell weeny little horns > it's a pretty safe guess that most of their drivers aren't optimized for large horns ( that might be crossed below 1K ).

It's hard ( these days ) to find a small format/diaphragmed driver that will go lower than 1K ( ignoring the Tymphany Peerless offerings, which seem to be outliers ).

:)
Click to expand...

But far from $50
 
loaded said:
Hey EarlK,

do you think you could make the GRS 12" woofer work well with the D230ti? I have the FRD/ZMA files attached here.
Click to expand...
I'm sure it's worth buying ( at least ) as an on-going learning experience.


SO:
Open up REW, then import all 4 of the provided .FRD files, then ( using the trace arithmetic function within REW ) create the "average" of the 4 traces > then export that "average as a 5th .frd file for use within XSim. The resulting ( averaged ) curve isn't as horrible as the 0 + 15deg axis traces would suggest.

Still, this woofer ( due to it's lousy response over 600hz ) will require something in the neighborhood of a 1500hz crossover point ( which is doubtful that the d230Ti can manage ).

:)
 
teaching me to fish... much appreciated. I'll give that a try. But sounds like you can see it won't. I already tried to get a working crossover in Xsim with no luck.
 
loaded said:
teaching me to fish... much appreciated. I'll give that a try. But sounds like you can see it won't. I already tried to get a working crossover in Xsim with no luck.
Click to expand...

Remember, I don't have any d230Ti drivers here ( yet ) and as far as I know, there aren't any measurements out-there for this driver on the H6512 waveguide.
- Therefore, no matter what, there's currently a huge amount of speculation going on.

Still, I kind of doubt that the smaller d230Ti has more low-end than the bigger d280Ti ( which I have here > and which I've shown barely gets to 1500hz on much larger horns than the H6512.

index.php


:)
 
OK I got confused -- upon rereading, I see there are 2 projects --

1) the OP with the interest in 12's & existing 6x12 clones
2) Rick with the interest in the 15 (is this for the Monets?)

I don't want to cross-pollute this thread any further so I'm shutting my piehole. @Rick Owen , if you have a thread for the 15" ewave somewhere, I'll pile-in there. Apology for any confusion.

IMO, it's always worth getting decent compression drivers--even if it takes a while to save. They often play both lower and higher than the economy jobs, not to mention smoother (which you'll appreciate when doing XO's). You'll listen to them daily but only have to buy them once :)
 
Yes, this why I am anxiously awaiting your measurements. Should have waited to purchase the D230ti but didn't realize back then how helpful everyone would be!

for drivers, I have also looked at 10" drivers as it seems I can afford better 10" drivers. This one has an offering on PE for $51 ea. Would a 10" not be a good idea?

1723070939434.png
 
Maybe take a skim of one of Wayne's posts on the topic. You can do anything you want, it's just that these kinds of topologies have seemingly extra conflicting priorities to balance.
 
loaded said:
I have also looked at 10" drivers as it seems I can afford better 10" drivers. This one has an offering on PE for $51 ea. Would a 10" not be a good idea?
Click to expand...

Well, "Rule-of-Thumb" ( which I'm sure you'll quite easily grock ) is that smaller means > "sounds" smaller.

OTOH, it's easy to see, that ( as a company ) FaitalPro actually care more about each and every product that they put out there.

Trace that tens response and give it a go in XSim.

"Future-Proofing": One approach would be to buy a pair 10's now ( and then add a pair later when you can afford it ) > > to eventually run the system with dual-woofers per side >> which gets you back to being "bigger" sounding ) . Just put everything in separate stackable boxes so you don't need to redo any carpentry.

If you keep the EBP of any woofer candidate below ( say 90hz ) you'll find that you can expect to get reasonable bass from a tuned box.
- That FaitalPro 10" example that you've displayed, should tune up quite well.

:)
 
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EarlK said:
Well, "Rule-of-Thumb" ( which I'm sure you'll quite easily grock ) is that smaller means > "sounds" smaller.

OTOH, it's easy to see, that ( as a company ) FaitalPro actually care more about each and every product that they put out there.

Trace that tens response and give it a go in XSim.

"Future-Proofing": One approach would be to buy a pair 10's now ( and then add a pair later when you can afford it ) > > to eventually run the system with dual-woofers per side >> which gets you back to being "bigger" sounding ) . Just put everything in separate stackable boxes so you don't need to redo any carpentry.

If you keep the EBP of any woofer candidate below ( say 90hz ) you'll find that you can expect to get reasonable bass from a tuned box.
- That FaitalPro 10" example that you've displayed, should tune up quite well.

:)
Click to expand...
This might be the ticket... thank you!
 
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