Electric vehicle owners, let's talk.

[NeilBEN]

I read an article a while back-I think it was Consumer reports. Owners can correct or expand, but it was something like this.. The charging stations charge by the minute.. Electric cars charge fast when they are low and slow down as they near full charge.. They recommend not charging more then (60% ??) at the station because "topping off" is expensive.

Some public charging stations are free. My little town has 3 (or 4?) in the central municipal parking lot, that are free. A number of shopping centers also have these. Usually, these are Level 2 - 240V.

There are a number of companies that have charging stations that are either Level 3 (high voltage DC) or Level 2, that charge money, and their prices vary, quite a bit. We are probably going to be buying a VW ID.4 (similar size to RAV4 or Model Y) that will have 3 years of free charging on Electrify America, as part of the purchase.

I will say again, that in over 6 years of driving 5 different electric cars, my immediate family has only ever used ANY type of public charging station a few dozen times. Almost all the time, we have charged at home; sharing one charging unit between as many as 3 electric cars. NO visits to a gas station. Just plug it in before you go in the house. Think of how you charge your cell phone - you learn how and when you need it, and you plug it in.

 

[NeilBEN]

So - its just your basic outlet on the wall, but rated high current.
The deal is the connecting cord? And that you carry around in the car.

Right - a car charging unit is very similar to an electric stove, or clothes dryer. Most are 220V and 28-32A, but some are as high as 48A. Most electric cars are 6.6kW or 7.2kW (28A or 32A), but a few older ones are 3.3kW (20A) and new ones are 10 or 11kW.

 

[rajoo]

So - its just your basic outlet on the wall, but rated high current.
The deal is the connecting cord? And that you carry around in the car.

Yes, a 240VAC 50A wall outlet. I installed one of these myself in our second home, but I did not have to go into the panel since there was an external main power disconnect switch to connect a generator. I did buy an appropriate box/breaker for this.

The cord that connects from the wall outlet to the vehicle is Tesla specific, perhaps is also model specific and its not a basic cord, but a 'smart' cord. One came with the car and bought a second one used for about $500. I don't carry the cord in the car since Tesla charging stations are corded outlets. Also the vehicle did not charge overnight a couple of times due to insufficient power, so I had to 'deoxit' the prongs of the plugs.

 

[Djcoolray]

DJ, your initial premise is wrong.
This thread is comparing EVs to Petro based individually owned vehicles.

Greening the power plants and redesigning the power grid is another discussion.
Not saying its not a valid discussion, but its not for a thread titled "EV Owners, Lets Talk"

Speculate on lead-acid based cars elsewhere - I don't believe that's a viable purchase option at present.

As long as we are a democracy with freedom as a byword, we will not see the US Gov't harsh down on consumers and force anything.
Not an opinion, just see how that flies. Much like trying to restrict couples to one child only.
And since THOSE topics will go political in a heartbeat,
lets limit this thread to the topic of the cars only, and what's actually available for general purchase today.

Maybe.....

Or maybe it’s about how people interpret what was written. My self as an open minded person living on the West Coast think that “Let’s Talk” is an indication of anything that has to do with electrical vehicles, any comparison to other modes of transportation based upon comparison. Then any theoretical method of power based upon cost and availability with the intention of driving green can be considered without going political. There are many reasons why many different people would want to buy an EV and just considering what is available for sale as a consumer is selling the possibilities short. Heck, there is even the possibility of creating a solar panel trailer about the size of a small u-haul trailer with solar panels on the outside and batteries on the inside for driving across the country.

With all due respect....

 

[NeilBEN]

I'll add that my Renegade does get 34.5 MPG average.
(this week it's 36.5)

I have a 22.5 mile one way commute to work on a combination of 45 MPH long windy back roads and 60 MPH start and stop 4 lane city/suburban highways.

1.4 litre turbo manual 6 speed.

...and it's plenty big and roomy for me at 6'3".

Plus I like to carry and haul stuff.

It's also surprisingly fun to drive.

The power to weight ratio is very favorable and the engine has a wide torque band.

Right - I averaged 47+MPG over the 10+ years that I have my last gasoline car. And that is still more money than an EV on expensive electricity.

I am 6'-4" and my son is almost 6'-6". There is more room in a car built on an EV platform, all else being equal. Because the batteries are in the floor, and the drive unit is much smaller for a given power output. They can have the wheels "pushed" to the corners, because the drive units fit more easily, and the requirements for cooling is much less, and there is not scorching hot exhaust system.

Some electric cars have a front trunk / boot aka a frunk or froot. Electric trucks will have far more utility space.

Electric cars have much lower center of gravity - the Tesla Model S has a Cg just 16" above the ground. It is almost impossible to roll them over. And any EV that has the battery pack in the floor is going to have a lower Cg than a similar size / height ICE vehicle.

Our Chevy Bolt EV (not a Volt) has no door sills, and has the easiest entry and exit of any car I know of. The floor is flat, and there is lots of knee room, because of the lack of a drivetrain tunnel.

 

[hjames]

with all due respect - there are all kinds of approaches to the question, including vans with rooftop panels or more,
and yes, I am a member of the EVA DC discussion group - but for the broadest discussion,
most folks are not looking to fab up their own vehicles, but looking at mass market solutions.

That's where I think we were headed here -

Understand, in the mid 70s I worked for Solarex Corporation in Rockville MD a firm started by 2 guys from Fairchild semiconductors;
and i actually worked the assembly line making solar panels. Slicing silicon ingots from Monsanto, diffusing them with various doping agents,
welding small arrays into larger ones. The firm was notorious for hiring idealistic young workers cheap, and working them hard around dangerous chemicals.
... but that's not actually the discussion most folks have going on here.

Maybe.....

Or maybe it’s about how people interpret what was written. My self as an open minded person living on the West Coast think that “Let’s Talk” is an indication of anything that has to do with electrical vehicles, any comparison to other modes of transportation based upon comparison. Then any theoretical method of power based upon cost and availability with the intention of driving green can be considered without going political. There are many reasons why many different people would want to buy an EV and just considering what is available for sale as a consumer is selling the possibilities short. Heck, there is even the possibility of creating a solar panel trailer about the size of a small u-haul with solar panels on the outside and batteries on the inside for driving across the country.

With all due respect....

 

[whoaru99]

Seems like that would need to be be one helluva trailed solar panel array to keep up with a ~20kWh on the fly demand.

 

[mkane]

hjames, little old ladies with there foot to the floor. Sensible folks don't drive like this.I get passed all the time on the freeway by folks like these going 85+. They wouldn't drive the 55' Buick that way.

I'm a track guy and drive as fast as the conditions allow. No weaving, no braking.

My wife's Fit got 40+ on her last freeway jaunt. You might try an idle re-set on yours seeing as how your driving habits have changed.

 

[rajoo]

Looking into the future, both VW and GM have committed to going into all electric vehicles. A basic electric car with a motor (2 WD) and an DC heating/cooling should not cost an arm and a leg like the Tesla. I believe that Honda introduced one recently, but only in Europe. The Nissan Leaf is/was (?) a great commuter car but with limited range, but for the average commuter it is good enough. But the Model 3 beat them out in looks and range, and I see very few Leafs on the road these days. For ease of driving and maintenance, an EV will beat out a hybrid by a mile as long as its intended use is commuting. What makes the current crop of EV's uber expensive are all the bells and whistles associated with self driving and navigation features, which are over hyped.

Once again it must be stressed that this country cannot switch to EV's in significant numbers in a short period of time unless the electricity supply network is totally revamped. I would rather see all new homes in the sun belt be mandated to have solar roofs, but that again will never happen.

 

[mkane]

Looking into the future, both VW and GM have committed to going into all electric vehicles. A basic electric car with a motor (2 WD) and an DC heating/cooling should not cost an arm and a leg like the Tesla. I believe that Honda introduced one recently, but only in Europe. The Nissan Leaf is/was (?) a great commuter car but with limited range, but for the average commuter it is good enough. But the Model 3 beat them out in looks and range, and I see very few Leafs on the road these days. For ease of driving and maintenance, an EV will beat out a hybrid by a mile as long as its intended use is commuting. What makes the current crop of EV's uber expensive are all the bells and whistles associated with self driving and navigation features, which are over hyped.

Once again it must be stressed that this country cannot switch to EV's in significant numbers in a short period of time unless the electricity supply network is totally revamped. I would rather see all new homes in the sun belt be mandated to have solar roofs, but that again will never happen.

that's our way of thinking.

 

[elcoholic]

I looked into this, but the entry cost is well over $10K and will only power lights and fridge/freezer in case of long term power outage. We fortunately are in the same power grid as the local fire station and our power seldom ever goes out. Our company electrician installs solar panels as a side business and I even looked into buying salvage Tesla battery packs but then abandoned the idea, since it cannot be connected to the PG&E service without permits.

Of course you’re on the same grid as your local fire station. The entire contiguous United States only has 3 grids. You’re on the same distribution circuit.

There’s a lot of good reasons for those electrical permits. Besides not burning your house down, there are power quality requirements and your neighbors to consider. Last year our computer UPS went from a handful events a year to 40-60 a day. It was transferring from commercial power to battery and back like a ping pong ball. SCE came out, ran some tests and determined it was our next door neighbor’s solar power system. Once that was fixed everything went back to normal. When customer generation is connected to the utility it’s known as parallel generation, it requires complex paralleling controls, net metering and isn’t something to DIY with old batteries beyond their service life.

I spent a great deal of my 43 year engineering career designing industrial power systems, cogeneration, and prime power systems for remote radar and cell sites. My personal grail quest since 1988 was the off grid Full Blown Cell Site (FBCS) which required a 200A, 240V service which would draw about 100A continuously day in and day out. The economics would never work out with solar, wind and/or propane in any combination so inevitably those areas got a severely capacity limited microcell or enhancer (bandaid) instead. The bugaboo is the damn batteries and keeping them cool. The standard for large stationary battery banks are lead acid and they need to be cooled to 78f to maximize service life, so air conditioning them in the desert uses half the power you generate and kills the economics. Towards the end of my career I got pretty close to the elusive FBC. GE was on to something with their sodium battery which runs at 300f internally requiring no AC. The model looked good enough that I was able to get AT&T corporate engineering (think Bell Labs) to approve a FOA (first office application) with a hybrid 30% propane/70% solar sodium battery system. In the end the site didn't make the cut that year for other reasons, so that I15 coverage gap on the Vegas run between Victorville and Barstow is probably still there. The cars are easy the easy part the reason I bring this up is to demonstrate that when you're unplugged it all comes down to batteries. Even though Tesla is a premium brand which fails to compete on TCO, their quest for the tab-less battery may be the next big step to affordable EV's that do pass TCO without need of mandate and rebate. EV's aren't there yet, but early adopters are making a statement (why else make EV's look different?) and helping to pave the way for a better battery. Hopefully it will be available and licensed or made available by the time I might buy a VW Bulli EV in 2023.

 

[hjames]

Seems like that would need to be be one helluva trailed solar panel array to keep up with a ~20kWh on the fly demand.

Well, the tethered generator is the more typical view of pushing a pure EV out past its range.
Stick a sterling engine or something similar in a trailer to charge the EV up as its running cross country ...

 

[mkane]

I can't pull a trailer and neither can Ricky.

 

[hjames]

that's our way of thinking.

Yep, the Chevy Bolt as a pure EV with 200+ mile range is available and affordable -
I got a sales flier from a local Chevy dealer today offering 2020 and 2021 inventory at pretty serious discounts.
I'm guessing like me, a lot of folks are not driving as much right now as they might otherwise be,
and all kinds of cars are sitting on the lots.
So like I say, there is not a huge surge of folks buying EVs to stress out the grid right now.
If they raise the fuel tax on Gas or do other similar measure, it could push sales higher -
but although we in this thread are intrigued, most folks are not interested.

For me - the Chevy Bolt is a similar size to my Honda Fit - so there is no gain in the change.
If they offered something like a Chevy Volt SUV HEV, I'd be more interested, but it sounds like the Volt drivetrain/technology has been shelved.

 

[GChief]

I hope everybody on this thread gets a chance to drive an electric car - any electric car. You can't appreciate how nice it is to drive one, unless and until you do.

Agreed, I get to ride in/drive three different Tesla S’s on a fairly regular bases.

Go ahead push the button it’s insane.

Some public charging stations are free.

I have only found a few pay ones here. I started Latin attention since I will seriously consider an EV. I was surprise how many there are now.

 

[hjames]

I can't pull a trailer and neither can Ricky.

Wasn't meant for you - but in the older issues of Pop Science/Pop Mechanics they did discuss similar Range extender technologies -
don't think any of them caught on. But certainly more doable than solar panels on a trailer

Seems like that would need to be be one helluva trailed solar panel array to keep up with a ~20kWh on the fly demand.

Agreed!

 

[rajoo]

Of course you’re on the same grid as your local fire station. The entire contiguous United States only has 3 grids. You’re on the same distribution circuit.

From Wiki: "Electrical grids vary in size from covering a single building through national grids (which cover whole countries) to transnational grids (which can cross continents).

Would the term 'Network' be more descriptive?

 

[NH-MAN]

Used to see last few winters a few electric cars running around up here, I have not seen any around my area this year.

Couple hundred mile range with the cold and heat going plus traffic and climbing hills the whole way I wouldn't even be able to head up to the popular ski areas for the day and get home.

One really needs to have a lifestyle/terrain/climate that supports having one.

 

[rajoo]

Yep, the Chevy Bolt as a pure EV with 200+ mile range is available and affordable -
I got a sales flier from a local Chevy dealer today offering 2020 and 2021 inventory at pretty serious discounts.
I'm guessing like me, a lot of folks are not driving as much right now as they might otherwise be,
and all kinds of cars are sitting on the lots.
So like I say, there is not a huge surge of folks buying EVs to stress out the grid right now.
If they raise the fuel tax on Gas or do other similar measure, it could push sales higher -
but although we in this thread are intrigued, most folks are not interested.

For me - the Chevy Bolt is a similar size to my Honda Fit - so there is no gain in the change.
If they offered something like a Chevy Volt SUV HEV, I'd be more interested, but it sounds like the Volt drivetrain/technology has been shelved.

If I had to this again, I would buy a Volt and not a Tesla, but I fell for the hype and Tesla Fremont (old NUMI) plant is close by and I drive by them every day. We bought the Model 3 when they first announced it and waited well over a year to take delivery. And I had to pay for every option including color which is a total rip off, and all options were mandatory. So a $35K car got north of $60K, but I did qualify for the $7,500 Federal tax credit.

 

[elcoholic]

Wiki isn’t the IEEE. Wiki is just people (mis)using terms. Like I said it’s a distribution circuit. Grids are macro. I don’t believe there’s ever been a grid outage in the US. I think India had their last one in 2012 - 400 MILLION people were without power.