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Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out

patfont said:
Results

Cap Shoot-Out Final Summary:

Special Category: Elna Cerafine

These are ridiculously clean and transparent sounding. They do not have the “tube sound” of the Silmics but are still smooth and sweet. They have an open window to the music from the upper mids all the way out to the high end. They do have a gentle bump in the mids that will move the vocals forward in the mix, and the high end has a gentle rise but is never shrill, just clean transparent and accurate. When I played Reference Recordings Dafos the song, “ Reunion,” there were parts that sounded so realistic I turned my head to look to each side of the room because I though this could not possibly be coming from the speakers.

Who are they for: As above you are looking for a high end type sound out of your Marantz receiver. The rest of your components are up to snuff and you can appreciate a musical revelation so to speak. You may not want to mate these to a speaker that has a hot high end, could be a little too much.

*******So these are the caps I could not get out of my head, I was willing to give up the lush sound of the Silmics for that open window that I got attached to when listening to the Cerafine’s.

Well that’s it, I did order Silmic 11’s and Cerafine’s for my phono board and will try both and report back.

I am not wanting people to go pulling caps out of their power supply board because of this thread, if you are indeed doing it and have the technical skills to do so please report back to this thread with your choice of what you used and your thoughts on the resulting sound.

Any questions just respond to the thread I was trying not to get side tracked , so did not comment much wanted to keep the thread on track.

Cheers!

Marantz 2220B Receiver: Totally stock with original Marantz outputs.
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I disagree regarding your Cerafines review . Cerafines are a mess compared to KZs or Silmics . I tried and tried to like Cerafines in the signal path but the high freq is scratching my ears .Maybe they are great for PSU but on signal path those are bad.Those are not clean and transparent because they will add a certain dirt or distortion in the high freq . Basically is the ceramic sound which is not great at all . Maybe they are great for PSU ...

Also to upgrade an amp and use mostly KZ won't be that great . I think is better to combine KZ with Silmics and Cerafines...
 
patfont said:
Nichicon KZ

Here are the Nichicon KZ



In and running!



I had to use one FG (Fine Gold) There was no 470uf 63V in KZ only goes up to 50V.

Initial Impressions: The KZ/FG are very analytical and clean sounding. They are probably the most accurate and natural yet across the board. Unlike the FC's they image well and go all the way down in the bass and have no high frequency roll off. There is a small problem in the lower mids they sound a bit scooped out here. I do want to break them in well before I commit to this though. They are not in the "tube like" catagory like the Silmics, and they do not have the detail and low bass articulation of the Cerafines.
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In reality Nichicon KZ have poor 3d resolution and the sound is to boring .The highs are very cold and they don't have good representation . Don't get me wrong . The details are there but is a cold etched restricted representation ..There is no involvement in the sound . I tried and tried to like those caps in different amps but you get what you pay for .They are cheap for a good reason . So they are bad in the signal path unlike Silmics . Is more of a hype with those . I don't think that KZs are true audio caps after all the tests .I moded 7 amps until now and every time I ended replacing almost all KZs with Silmic 2 because KZs music was simply boring .
 
Robert2017 said:
In reality Nichicon KZ have poor 3d resolution and the sound is to boring .The highs are very cold and they don't have good representation . Don't get me wrong . The details are there but is a cold etched restricted representation ..There is no involvement in the sound . I tried and tried to like those caps in different amps but you get what you pay for .They are cheap for a good reason . So they are bad in the signal path unlike Silmics . Is more of a hype with those . I don't think that KZs are true audio caps after all the tests .I moded 7 amps until now and every time I ended replacing almost all KZs with Silmic 2 because KZs music was simply boring .
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My testing you are referring to was with the caps on the "power supply board."
Not in the "signal path."
 
patfont said:
My testing you are referring to was with the caps on the "power supply board."
Not in the "signal path."
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I'm glad I found this, I'm recapping a Hitachi HA 610 and was nervous about using Silmics for everything including the psu. Its nice to know it should sound better. Very nice documentation from 8 years ago.
 
I just finished reading the whole thread. What a wealthy source of information! Thank you all for contributing!

I'd like to share my 2 cents worth, to give others with looming questions and eager for recommendations a little reality check.

I see many people swapping out cinnamon drop, green chicklet, and other "signature" capacitors in their vintage gear. Depending on where they live in the circuit, these components may have been selected by the OEM on purpose. In my experience, the vast majority of these film (and some electrolytic) caps are not high failure parts. Especially in the signal path, these film caps imbibe character to the sound. Changing them for something else will alter the character of the equipment.

Whether or not to do it depends on the intentions of the owner/technician. This debate is very hot and biased with electric guitars and pro audio equipment. Nobody can tell you what you like or don't like: the fact is that the sound will have a new character or texture if the change is made. Whether the listener/musician/audiophile will embrace the change is a trick question. There is no one answer for everyone.

I believe Pat nailed this description years ago. If you want the original package sound, pay attention to what went in from the factory and swap accordingly. Electrolytic capacitors have much more variance in this realm. If the originals were "general purpose" Elna, nichicon, Panasonic, etc, that's what should go back in to retain the OEM sound. If the piece is a few decades old, the new recap will sound better anyway. Yes, "mere mortal" capacitors take time to break in, just like "superstar" capacitors do, so don't be immediately put off.

If you're like Pat and want upgraded performance out of the unit, this thread has a lot of really solid critiques and impressions of the differences between comparable components. No one can tell you what to like, we can only ask for preferences and expectations. After gaining some insight, the field can be narrowed. In the end, someone is going to have to do some cooking if the end user is highly discerning.
 
What Robert commented recently is completely relevant to this conversation. He thought that he wanted the original package sound, but once he brought the unit to that "refreshed" level, he craved a little something different.

The main filter cap upgrade (big cans) is the single most revealing upgrade. If you are on the fence whether to spend double or more, just do it. Far and wide the most bang for the buck. After that, returns diminish quickly.

For the masses who don't have particularly discerning ears or the speakers to resolve the sound, the Panasonic signal path upgrade will give the "modern refreshing" neutral sound. If the OEM put cherries in key locations, it can be heard fairly easily. With this approach, swap the capacitors out in small groups and give a listen. Brand new, not burned in, general impression. Then move on. If you take out a cherry, it will be noticeable. Maybe bypass that Panasonic with a film for two reasons: mark the location and note the relationship.

For those who want to bring the sound closer to the "fancy new this decade" sound, nichicon muse is the ticket. Fine gold and the green bipolar lines are very accurate and crystal clear as far as what electrolytics are capable of. They have that "class D 7.1.2 Atmos energy delivery" character to them. Some people call this sterile or surgical, cold, crisp, or something boring.

For those seeking something "retro modern", "vividly comfortable" or "without fatigue", the elnas deliver this. While they're not so scientifically ultra high definition in nature, they have a tendency to accentuate and reveal details that other caps merely "faithfully reproduce". As some people have mentioned, they are more like watching a live act in person: as you move around in the venue, you find a few spots that just sound right. The singer cuts through the accompanying instruments and isn't pushed behind. The drums make your toes tap. Sounds different than the album.

Not a bad thing, but it is a thing. The scientist might put his measuring device on it and find an anomaly. So what? It sounds more like the old wood box console than the new black home theater component box. These are details that are not stark or immediate. Plus, the character and subtle flavors mingle closer to each other as the components go from newly installed to settled in. This is definitely not "plug and chug, rubber stamp, instant gratification" in nature.
 
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I have found that when replacing stock films say C401/C402 2230/2245/2270 Preamp board or C701/C702 phono board etc, you need to go above a garden variety film cap to make it worth while.
My two cents.
 
was doing Google searches about mods caps, and I ended up finding this beautiful job here, I'm still reading the pages, it's very gratifying to see a job like this.
I have a Dac SMSL SU8 version II and I want to make the mods caps for better ones, I'll try for pictures here for appreciation, I accept suggestion.

20211107_151812.jpg upload_2021-11-8_1-0-4.jpeg 20211107_151624.jpg

@patfont
6ZCD4G99B_oVxxj8t52k0eoYZaTp-B-Cm14TegeCHHDgJykh56GXMMWTc4v12dW9j89NGsfByC72hk3XG7SCnsp1_AQ43in1o3R8a1blbjSfQo_HNbywF3Os5MEQ_GeSzqHjHyzwvgLeGEwKABHzb0h42IJLE49KXx_RRlIWPlio_PwmWyiW_uetlp4es41gnXVv4zVM3-Yr0gFFjlJ3ekju5PbzkA89Yk874d9p5LI5V_PtiXPALBoJQeVZS5yLeajTEtlilChh8DC02LRbrzKcTuLxy2WeI6SfR8TkkVLdpeTm1xbBhwy4Mm7VAQuLTJm5kWHx0JPISn6Vo0r0oUDQtZitTQ52X-U03dR8r-rSwKiqiXi3eeav0qkxxdY7Qh3_QtYsky_VXZ55uztrnHCGPf8C_TZLvMZAUbo8FhWZPa9u1T3IiLi4Ha7rtkCk1rBpCmb2PnjCSlr9v_pDt5m5MHtfNBjvnnoPO5sCZkXgqEdkpqeP6kK9BJ5OtWPZN8LGb7MWrCIcW_vY-aKZQLOTBfCfq0-Ec97yBRN391IDsc9LkGopo7G7Omb1Y9rRt3wsV7wCvVeDhCVg4j5c8nhH_A2yxIrD2xcUBLESOShdc65bZkyYu8Tt92WGk5Iam6DKme0hKbtc_LAhfiGe5AEQ4rcfkX2H4vSoOOKlNlwgfuMwPg4ElRk2WxvtLjV7ABD4JIZ_4Xk-wdOfkUS3bdOEjg=w2868-h1615-no
 
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Not an expert on Panasonic caps, but I usually test what I take out to get a feel for the uf/VDC and brands I should check in the future. Don't often find Panasonic caps being out of spec. Definitely don't have a ton of experience, but it's what I've found thus far.

Mr:Bond said:
@patfont

My amp Schiit linear psu caps Panasonic M 1000uF 35v :(

Modding Nichicon FG 1000uF 35v?

1bb9afdef2253344db7b9e677e93a74d1eea49ac_2_1380x692.jpeg
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Mr:Bond said:
@patfont

My amp Schiit linear psu caps Panasonic M 1000uF 35v :(

Modding Nichicon FG 1000uF 35v?

1bb9afdef2253344db7b9e677e93a74d1eea49ac_2_1380x692.jpeg
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Looking at their data sheets, M series Panasonics are general purpose caps with no notable special features other than small size. Pretty much any audio grade cap of the same value should work if it will fit. But if it is in the power supply, I would use Nichicon UPW series caps.
 
Steven Tate said:
Looking at their data sheets, M series Panasonics are general purpose caps with no notable special features other than small size. Pretty much any audio grade cap of the same value should work if it will fit. But if it is in the power supply, I would use Nichicon UPW series caps.
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Thank you for your contribution.
Yes, I spent the last few days researching caps and I just read this whole topic here yesterday, I learned a lot about caps in the last few days thanks to good people like Pat and so many others who are willing to share some of their knowledge with us, I'm amazed and very grateful to all of you.
Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language.
The Panasonic Caps I thought of putting in their place the Nichicon FGs of equal value to the Pana, for the sake of space, but there are the smaller aluminum ones among them, in this one I have doubts about which others to change, not if I leave they will end up invalidating the exchange of Pana M.
Nippon chemi 15000uF 16v black caps I don't intend to mess with, but this Pana M I think it's good to change, anything else that friends can suggest?
 
Steven Tate said:
Looking at their data sheets, M series Panasonics are general purpose caps with no notable special features other than small size. Pretty much any audio grade cap of the same value should work if it will fit. But if it is in the power supply, I would use Nichicon UPW series caps.
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I didn't find these Nichicon puw on partsconnexion.
I found the Elna Silmic II 100uf 35v for the 4 SMD and Nichicon FG 1000uf 35v for the 4 Panasonic M.
any suggestion?

ELNA-72726.jpg
 
patfont said:
You could replace the 2 Nichicon FG's with these:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/LKG1J102MESYCK?qs=4lWw5qRttGL2FqLd0O%2BGFg==


What are the original cap diameter, and is there any height restrictions?
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I'm 42mm tall, but a little bit wide, I could lay them down.
I put beside the photo of the previous model the Jot 1 that had 6 caps Pana M 1000uf 35v, in this new model Jot 2 only comes 4 Pana M.
Anyway I need to take out the pans and in place for better ones, the amp has a lot to gain by removing these pans that are not good for audio, so I was looking at the smaller FGs and mixing with Silmic II also smaller.
But I take any good suggestions.

upload_2021-11-10_19-22-26.pngupload_2021-11-10_19-22-26.png
 
What is the size of the original caps, the Nickicon KG's come in other diameters.
Other choices are Nichicon KS and KW/FG if you want a radial.

What is the exact cap diameter, height, and value?


Pat
 
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