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Entry Level Turntables: New vs. Vintage

AvFan

AvFan

Super Member
My Pioneer PL-610 may be showing its age. It will not lower the arm to play or lower to its rest. A very reputable shop here in San Diego is taking a look at it but I face the real possibility of ending up with a fully manual turntable without a cueing mechanism. Using it that way is a recipe for a messed up stylus and scratched vinyl.

So, I've been looking at both new (Music Hall mmf 2.2, Rega, Pro-ject) entry level turntables and vintage Pioneer belt drive manual turntables like the PL-12D, 12DII and 112D. All are simple and less likely to be a problem once tuned up with my Ortofon 2M Blue.

I've searched this topic and the general consensus is that you'd need to spend $1000 new to get the quality of a vintage turntable. However, those threads don't really talk about new manual vs vintage manual. Cost is an issue and the vintage tables can be had for 1/4 or less the cost of the new ones.

But leaving cost aside, would a vintage Pioneer manual belt drive turntable (12 series, PL-514, etc) compete sound quality wise with the new entry level belt drive turntables from Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject?

Thanks for the insights!
 
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As a thought exercise I have looked at some of those new entry level turntables. I have most closely mulled the Pro-Ject/Music Hall offerings asking myself what all I would have to invest in to end up with something I would have no lingering reservations about. Some amateur owner-reviewers say they sound better with the optional speed box. Some say the optional platters help the sound. Many say I'd want to upgrade the supplied cartridges. (And of late I hear there is an inexpensive Pro-Ject upgrade kit with modified motor mounting parts to eliminate low frequency rumble.) The alleged professional reviewers who look at just what comes out of the box say they are all fabulous, but maybe not the absolute best. In some very rounded numbers I priced all those options I'd need to to buy to turn "fabulous but maybe not the absolute best" into what it should have been in the first place, and it came close to doubling the cost of the basic entry level turntable. Are these options really necessary? I don't know, as I have never corralled a sales person and listened to one of these turntables in person. But as a thought exercise it seemed a lot like buying the cheapest model of a line of cars and trying to sell myself on the idea I'd never miss any of the options on the more expensive models. These particular entry level turntables do not have detachable headshells which probably wouldn't be an issue if you like to install a cartridge and use it for a long time. With new you at least have a warranty and a good chance of replacement parts, if needed. With vintage you run the risk of unavailable parts.

Fortunately I do not have to make a buying decision on any of those particular turntables, even if I might be happy with one as it came out of the box. I currently have the use of a fairly new Technics SL-1210 series model, a fairly new Audio-Technica AT-PL120, and from the year 1981 a Technics SL-B303 and a Technics SL-D303. None of them at this time have any issues which would affect their sound, so any of them playing with a well setup cartridge suited to them can sound very nice. And in the end, something that works well with your chosen cartridge is a good thing to aim for.
 
Before I got into vintage stuff, but when I wanted to get back into records, I bought a Pro-Ject 1.2. Then I discovered the joys of vintage and acquired a PL530 and a PL518. One of the Pioneers had a Shure V15 Type IV on it. I really like the 518, but I mostly use the Pro-ject with the Shure cartridge. I like how it looks and sounds and I am pretty sure it's running right. If you want to try out different cartridges, the headshells on the Pioneers make it easier. The tonearm wires on the Pro-ject are fragile.
 
AvFan said:
I've searched this topic and the general consensus is that you'd need to spend $1000 new to get the quality of a vintage turntable.
Click to expand...

To my ears, the entry level Music Hall and Rega turntables offer better sound quality than any of the mass-market, vintage turntables I've had a chance to hear. I'm not as familiar with Pro-Ject, having only heard them in isolation, not in comparative demonstrations. I've preferred the Rega P1 and RP1 over similarly-priced Music Hall models.

Of course, what you're listening for in a turntable will affect your perception of its sound. Linn's suggestion of forgetting "hi-fi jargon" like bass, treble, imaging, etc., and listening instead for musical values (like beat, rhythm, and melody) has always made sense to me. They suggest asking yourself questions like do all the musicians seem to be playing together (that is, in synchronization with the beat), can I pick out any musical part and follow it without difficulty, how easy is it to predict/follow the tune, am I responding to the music, such as by tapping in time. The better turntable makes it easier to understand and appreciate what the musicians are doing, making the performance more engaging.

I find the low-end Music Halls and, even more so, the low-end Regas to be highly musically engaging. Much more so than the BIC, Garrard, Philips, Dual, and Thorens turntables I've owned. If that shop gets your Pioneer in playable shape, even if manual only, take it to a Music Hall or Rega dealer and do a comparative listen. The short article linked to below offers, I think, some useful information on how to judge a hi-fi.
http://www.hawthornestereo.com/advice/judging.html
 
AvFan said:
... [L]eaving cost aside, would a vintage Pioneer manual belt drive turntable (12 series, PL-514, etc) compete sound quality wise with the new entry level belt drive turntables from Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject?

Thanks for the insights!
Click to expand...

This is a case where you get to make your own tradeoffs. If you're at all sensitive to wow and flutter, you may find the new belt-drives to be more irritating than satisfying. The flutter specs on the Music Hall and Pro-Ject decks are in the 0.12-0.15% range, if memory serves. The vintage Pioneer belt-drives spec out at 0.1% or better, and you can do even better (0.045% WRMS) with one of the vintage Technics belt-drives. Rega doesn't provide specs for any of their turntables, but some reviewers have noted audible flutter on the lower models in their line. I personally have a low tolerance for speed instability in my record playback, so I've stayed away from the new entry-level turntables.

On the positive side, the Music Halls, Pro-Jects and especially the Regas have better tonearms than most of the vintage decks. If you can't hear the flutter on the music that matters to you, the arm quality might tip the choice in favor of a new turntable from one of these companies.
 
A used SL-1200 for $400 or so is the best way to get a reliable, simple, good-sounding table. Those machines are practically maintenance-free and built to last forever.
 
I'm sensitive to wavering pitch on a turntable. And none of the neo belt drive machines until you get to $1200 new are acceptable to my ear on pitch accuracy. And I must have a headshell or the ability to have 2 or 3 tonearms mounted. If you buy a Rega, Pro-Ject, or Music Hall get middle of the line or upwards. Better performing stock and more easily tweakable.
 
I got my Sony BioTracer PSX-500 up and running the other day, I have a Pro-Ject Perspective II with the Speedbox II attached. I took the Benz Micro Ace off the Perspective and put it in the Sony.

To tell the truth there is not that much difference, probably a little less bass extension and not as much front to back soundstage with the Sony, but I haven't fine tuned the alignment yet.

So all in all I would be very happy with the vintage Sony as it can handle the Benz Ace easily and there is not much difference to my old ears between it and the Pro-Ject table.
 
I currently own a direct drive deck in my main system (a 1977 Rotel RP3000 that I have owned since new), a Dual 1226 idler drive in my bedroom system, and bought my daughter a Pro-Ject 2.1 belt drive about a year ago. The vintage tables are both in excellent shape and fully functional. While all three are good, involving turntables, I have to say that the Pro-Ject may sound the best. It definitely has the quietest background, and I have not heard any audible wow or flutter. The fact that the table was new probably helps. The Pro-Ject has a good upgrade path as well. You can upgrade the platter and drive belt, and the Ortofon OM5 cartridge can be upgraded to an OM-10,-20- up to a -40 stylus (which would set you back more than the turntable). Overall, I'm very impressed with it.

As to the vintage tables, my Rotel has been spectacularly reliable for well over 30 years, and sounds very good. The platter is very microphonic (I recently added dampening material to the underside of it), and it tends to pick up surface noise more than the others, especially with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. But it is very dynamic, and tracks superbly, especially in the inner groove area. Its also beautiful. Rotel turntables are often available for next to nothing, and their top of the line DD and belt drive tables are very underrated.

The compact Dual 1226 was serviced before I got it, and for $75.00, is well worth it. As many have mentioned, Duals are complex and will need serviced occasionally, if only to lube all the automatic function parts. Typical of idlers, the bass is very punchy, and the overall sound is great. I can detect a very little audible rumble, only if turned up during very quiet passages.

That is my experience anyway.
 
Thanks for the insights everyone. I'm very happy with the sound of my PL-610 so maybe I should compare a vintage belt drive and the PL-610 as well as A-B the PL-610 against a new table. It would be a rather modest investment to acquire a vintage belt drive. I can't do a quick A-B comparison as suggested in the Hawthorne article but it wouldn't take much time to move the headshell between tables.

Interesting to note wow and flutter sensitivity. The PL-610 has virtually none (0.025%) but when I disengaged the quartz lock it didn't seem to sound as good. Maybe it was simply because I knew the speed wasn't locked that I drew that conclusion or maybe I noticed some wow and flutter. More experience is needed for me to say.

And, yes, I've been tempted by the SL-1200s that occasionally come up on the local CL. Most are pretty beat up cosmetically but every once in a while one was used just at home and not scratching or mobile DJ. It is very tempting to get one.

I'm still really interested if anyone has done a head to head comparison between entry level vintage and new belt drive tables and what their opinions are. Thanks!

Just missed Scubaguy10's comments. Much appreciated.
 
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But leaving cost aside, would a vintage Pioneer manual belt drive turntable (12 series, PL-514, etc) compete sound quality wise with the new entry level belt drive turntables from Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject?
Click to expand...

in my humble opinion and experience...yes...as long as you stick to budget cartridges..
the pioneer pl12d in good working order,with tonearm bearings showing no signs of play or binding..is still an excellent entry level turntable when mated with something like a, at95e or at110e.
Its far more enjoyable to use and listen to than the project debut with the basic ortofon cartridge provided and has none of the HUM that seems to plague the two projects debuts i've heard.

personally i think to better the pioneer pl12d in any significantly upgradeable area...you're basically looking at a turntable with a better arm design at the bearing pivot (ie a later type of arm)..ie rega rb250 or rega rb300 or linn basik arm.
Most of these arms when sold in an entry level package will come with a fixed plinth turntable design which will more often than not necessitate a wall shelf.to keep external vibration away from the stylus while playing
..not that the pioneer arm is a bad one...but tonearm arm designs are probably the most 'visible' evolution when comparing vintage entry level turntables to their modern equivalent..

wow and flutter specs and vibration isolation haven't moved on that much at an 'entry level' price point...and in the case of vibration exclusion...and hum shielding... vintage entry level is likely just as good as modern entry level...
although the pioneer's suspension is actually a very good one and its less fussy about where you place it that most fixed plinth entry level turntables.

so...take your pick...but don't spend mega bucks on 'new' thinking that it must be 'better' unless you're venturing into middle and high end territory... with minor tweaking and careful set up..vintage turntables can still be the most economical way to a cost effective yet very musical sound...

thing to remember is...a pioneer pl12d in todays money...is probably a fair bit more than a new entry level turntable in terms of value...
count the number of parts and materials used...plus a much smaller turntable market than in the 70's and 80's..
 
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The description of entry level turntable either new or old could cover a lot of ground. For me entry level would be minimal sound quality, minimal specs and a build quality/parts that would not last many years. My description can apply both to vintage and new. The Pioneer PL-610 was/is IMO mid level midfi vintage. If it sounds good to you and if the cost of repair is reasonable I suggest you get it repaired and good chance it will be good for another 25+ years. You may be able to squeak more performance by doing a cartridge upgrade. All this could be done for less than the cost of any new turntable that probably won't come close to sounding/performing as good as the one you have. Having owned about 15 turntables over the years and seeing/listening to many others both new and old today for a turntable to sound noticably better than what you have be prepared to spend $1,000+. If your selective and find a good condition SL-1200MkII you won't be disappointed, I consider these the Toyota Camray/Honda Accords of turntables that are extremely reliable and sound excellent. I just can't warm myself up to any of the new entry level belt drive turntables knowing what I'v seen and heard from decent vintage belt drive turntables.
 
AvFan said:
I've searched this topic and the general consensus is that you'd need to spend $1000 new to get the quality of a vintage turntable.
Click to expand...

You may need to spend that much to get the quality of a GOOD vintage turntable, not just any. There are a lot of mediocre vintage turntables.
 
AvFan said:
My Pioneer PL-610 may be showing its age. It will not lower the arm to play or lower to its rest. A very reputable shop here in San Diego is taking a look at it but I face the real possibility of ending up with a fully manual turntable without a cueing mechanism. Using it that way is a recipe for a messed up stylus and scratched vinyl.

So, I've been looking at both new (Music Hall mmf 2.2, Rega, Pro-ject) entry level turntables and vintage Pioneer belt drive manual turntables like the PL-12D, 12DII and 112D. All are simple and less likely to be a problem once tuned up with my Ortofon 2M Blue.

I've searched this topic and the general consensus is that you'd need to spend $1000 new to get the quality of a vintage turntable. However, those threads don't really talk about new manual vs vintage manual. Cost is an issue and the vintage tables can be had for 1/4 or less the cost of the new ones.

But leaving cost aside, would a vintage Pioneer manual belt drive turntable (12 series, PL-514, etc) compete sound quality wise with the new entry level belt drive turntables from Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject?

Thanks for the insights!
Click to expand...
I have no real opinion. I think you can't go wrong with either vintage or new. BUT if you do plan to go new and want a Rega, I'd suggest calling Dan at Blackbird Audio/Gallery (who is also in San Diego). He's a great guy and will give you a great deal.

I have no affiliation with this dealer, just a happy customer.
 
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Hiya - I did not read this thread but the title conjured up some thoughts I wanted to share. In a nutshell, the difference between new vs. old Entry-Level seems to be the tonearm. Newer entry level stuff often lacks the former grandeur of its predecessors *in terms of the table itself(platter, motor, etc)* but the tonearms which come standard on entry level kit today are far superior to the entry level vintage stuff I find.

If you could sucessfully mount a modern high quality arm on a precision deck of yesteryear, you might have a giant-killer for little money.

Alright, I'm done...how many more times can I say 'entry-level' in 1 post!?:D
 
If it's an ENTRY-LEVEL model, i'd go for a new turntable, for example a Rega.

The most bang for the buck? That's buying a *high quality* vintage table and refurbishing it.

As johnVF said, there are a lot of mediocre "vintage" turntables.
 
Neither new or vintage is any guarantee of a good turntable. I believe I'v either been very lucky, fussy or maybe learned a few things when I go to purchase a turntable. The last four turntables I purchased were about as close to new in performance/appearance as they could come and still be 20-30 years old and I didn't have to do a thing to them then or since. I constantly see similar turntables that I would exspect to be just as good and the Rega turntables are not in that group.
 
New vs. vintage, Rega vs. everything, etc...more of the same tired old arguments that cannot be settled. Each person has to simply decide for themselves.
 
...more of the same tired old arguments that cannot be settled. Each person has to simply decide for themselves.
Click to expand...

I will listen to some alternatives and make my own decision if my PL-610 can't be repaired but my goal in starting the thread was to hear from folks that had compared new and vintage belt drive turntables and formed their own opinions (e.g. scubaguy10's post) regarding their individual merits. I hope to find a pattern that will provide me some insights to consider. Might be a long shot, but let's see where this goes. So far there have been some interesting things for me to consider like wow and flutter, checking the tonearm bearing, and vibration isolation. All is good info for me to consider and I appreciate folks sharing.
 
You will have to go have a listen. Thats really going to be the only way. We all hear differentely. I realize this is not what people want to hear, but only you can decide what sounds great to you. You have a good reference with the Pioneer, and hopefully it can be fixed (Most likely), but if not, go to a few high end stores and have a listen :)
 
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