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Entry Level Turntables: New vs. Vintage

I can respect the opinions of those who say it takes some particular amount of money to measure up to vintage turntables, but I see it as a generalization with no really basis on fact. It's largely just comments I see in the forums and they get passed around like facts. I've had old turntables and they vary in quality just about as much as new turntables. One thing will always be true, old stuff outside of collectibles will usually be cheaper than new stuff.

After spending a fair amount of time with reasonably well-regarded old turntables like the Marantz 6300, I decided I no longer wanted to be handcuffed by bargains. I wanted something I really like and something that sounds seriously good to me. So I got a Music Hall MMF-5. It sounded so good for such reasonable money I figured there must be more to be heard...and so there was. I then upgraded to a Rega P5, which had all the good things of the MMF-5, but cleaner, tighter and with more authority. Sure...I won't be posting the P5 in a "scores under $10 thread", but it was worth every penny.
 
jrtrent said:
To my ears, the entry level Music Hall and Rega turntables offer better sound quality than any of the mass-market, vintage turntables I've had a chance to hear. I'm not as familiar with Pro-Ject, having only heard them in isolation, not in comparative demonstrations. I've preferred the Rega P1 and RP1 over similarly-priced Music Hall models.

Of course, what you're listening for in a turntable will affect your perception of its sound. Linn's suggestion of forgetting "hi-fi jargon" like bass, treble, imaging, etc., and listening instead for musical values (like beat, rhythm, and melody) has always made sense to me. They suggest asking yourself questions like do all the musicians seem to be playing together (that is, in synchronization with the beat), can I pick out any musical part and follow it without difficulty, how easy is it to predict/follow the tune, am I responding to the music, such as by tapping in time. The better turntable makes it easier to understand and appreciate what the musicians are doing, making the performance more engaging.

I find the low-end Music Halls and, even more so, the low-end Regas to be highly musically engaging. Much more so than the BIC, Garrard, Philips, Dual, and Thorens turntables I've owned. If that shop gets your Pioneer in playable shape, even if manual only, take it to a Music Hall or Rega dealer and do a comparative listen. The short article linked to below offers, I think, some useful information on how to judge a hi-fi.
http://www.hawthornestereo.com/advice/judging.html
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Good advice here.
 
majick47 said:
Rega, MH, Project etc musical values as Zilch would say are "fun but fake".
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I suppose you have at your disposal the 'music meter', measuring musicality? Because lots of people seem to enjoy the hell out of them, including for their musicality.

Bob_in_OKC said:
The ongoing anti-Rega/MH/Pro-Ject sentiment around here by a vigilant few is silly.
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Yep. One of many silly, oft-repeated notions around here.
 
here's a bit of 'vintage' that wont win any style awards...and close up ..its quite scrappy in appearance and external finish...
but its musical performance... :D
 

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The ongoing anti-Rega/MH/Pro-Ject sentiment around here by a vigilant few is silly.
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rega planar 3 fan here btw...owned one from new since '94 and wont be parting with it in this lifetime... wanted to love the project debut..but my ears told me it was cheaply made..and despite the arm being actually decent...having a poorly finished metal platter( is it Iron?) under a magnetic cartridge did it no favours...(google 'project debut hum' for others who were also disappointed)
the better projects are a different story however..
 
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So at the risk of being lumped in with the anti-set . . .

I agree that there are lots (and lots) of mediocre vintage tables out there. I fix a lot of them for other people, so I hear plenty. I also heard a Music Hall MMF-2.1 that came in for a new belt. It sounded okay, but there's no way it was head and shoulders above those mediocre vintage tables, and a good Thorens or Dual would smoke it. Even my Technics DD sounded better. And it felt flimsy. I've heard similar things from friends about the Pro-ject tables (one buddy went to a Clearaudio and loves that one). I haven't heard a Rega in years, but I have to believe their entry-level units are better quality than those others.

So here's the issue. I think if you're going to buy a new table, you have to dig deep into the wallet to get high-dollar performance. And if you're buying vintage, you simply have a much wider range of styles and quality levels to choose from. You can tailor your purchase to your tastes and your budget. I think that's much more difficult buying a new table.

Also, consider this: about six years ago, I picked up a Thorens TD-125 MkII with an SME 3009 for a little over $300. That same table would cost at least twice that now. Meanwhile, the new entry level tables are still roughly the same price as they were then.

There's a reason why prices have trended that way.

Call me anti-whatever if you want, and I freely admit I know lots more about vintage tables than I do about the newer stuff. But at the entry-level price point, I just wouldn't bother. It's the stuff people buy before they upgrade to something better.
 
The MH MMF 2.1 is damn near old enough to be vintage. It ain't new and it ain't in the same league as a Rega RP1 or even the MMF 2.2.
 
I can't make an argument in favor of new vs. old when you have a budget of, say, $300. Luck plays so much into it, and I've personally bought $300 vintage turntables that smoke $1200 modern tables (Mitsubishi LT-30 vs. Marantz/Clearaudio TT-15s1). But the thing is with vintage, many people act like you can just walk out and buy any table, and you're good to go to beat the modern boys. That's just not so. You have to know what you're looking for, and you have to find it in good condition. Maybe 1 in 10 vintage tables are worth looking into, and 1 in 10 of those are competitive with a $500 modern table. Sure, you can save some money- but you HAVE to do your homework. Just because somebody on the internet says that a Pioneer PL-550 is better than a Clearaudio Emotion, doesn't make it so. Its not! But, to my ears, a Mitsubishi LT-30, is. And so might be a PL-630. Its way more hit or miss than people let on, at least that is how it turned out to be for myself. And there's also a whole world in-between--during the late '80s and '90s, where some of the true bargains lie. Find a Sota Saphire from the early '90s and compare it to a well regarded vintage deck. I bet you keep the Sota.

The internet is a strange place- you don't need to prove anything, you can just say it, and it is so. I've seen arguments online between fans of two different tables, from different mass market manufacturers, that were pretty heated and adamant- yet both tables looked to be nearly identical, and probably both originally made by CEC for the respective brands! People like to take sides and pick teams and lump themselves into clans like 'new' or 'vintage' when it shouldn't matter....just go listen to some turntables in your budget, and hear for yourself. Too many people on the internet have an agenda that is completely unrelated to finding the best turntable for the best price.
 
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Yep... I'm with John!

If you have the time and the inclination to go hunting, and spend days/weeks/months getting to know what is out there, what the differences are, how they work, what current prices are etc... There is every chance that you can get a real bargain for your $300...

What is your time worth though?
How much have you invested?

If you want to spend $300 on something nice that plays records well, without spending 100's of hours learning and researching, then go visit a local dealer...

If you are lucky your local dealer may also have "vintage" tables... but either way, you will get something that plays records and sounds nice...

If you are in no hurry, and learning about vinyl replay interests you, then by all means go out and hunt (I did / do).... there are certainly bargains out there - but the real value gems need to be sought out, and you need to be able to recognise them!

bye for now

David
 
JohnVF said:
You have to know what you're looking for, and you have to find it in good condition. Maybe 1 in 10 vintage tables are worth looking into, and 1 in 10 of those are competitive with a $500 modern table. Sure, you can save some money- but you HAVE to do your homework.
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:yes:

The crux of doing it smart, vintage or new, is making sure you know what you're looking for.
 
I'll just say that in thirty years of weekly garage and estate sale shopping, I've never seen an "audiophile" turntable. closest thing was a Technics 1200, which I bought. And love. But then I have no taste. :)

So internet shopping seems to be the fastest way to pick up something good, but then you have to worry about shipping.
 
I got my SL1200 for $250. Perfect working order, only minor cosmetic flaws. Replaced the dustcover, replaced the DJ cart with a Grado, and it is golden. It's absolutely the best vintage table you can get for the money. All the hyperbole you hear about this table is warranted.
 
Very true. I did a bit of homework--mainly starting a thread on SHTV--and ended up getting my Thorens on eBay for a fair price and all in one piece. I was very lucky, though, and even then had to do a couple repairs/mods that were easy enough, but that I wasn't expecting. Goes with the territory when you go for one or more of these: cheap, vintage, eBay.

With speakers I wasn't quite as lucky. I managed to make a small profit as I traded up, but I would have had sound I was happy with sooner if I'd done more research first.
 
Tonearms on Rega, Pro-Ject, and Music Hall are excellent quality. But my turntable better be pitch accurate, have variable pitch (some records are indeed cut from off speed tapes) and be able to withstand high hours use and be reliable and consistent. I maintain broadcast and pro studio gear for a living, last thing I want is a moody, inflexible turntable which needs as much as it cost in upgrades to perform as it should have stock from the factory. It needs to sound as fine as it can within those guidelines. Otherwise, NOT ACCEPTABLE.
 
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