Entry Level Turntables: New vs. Vintage

[kermit z]

I agree with you Bob, this happens all the time. Then when you ask these folks what experience they have with the gear that they are putting down, they dont answer, or they say they "Read it". Gets kinda tiring for sure.

 

[JohnVF]

Someone told me vintage ARC amps are better than modern ARC amps, in direct response to my comment about my modern one.

I have a vintage ARC SP-3a1 sitting in the closet waiting for it to be turned into a modernized SP-3c, which all the people say not to do because it loses it's 'magic'. I WANT to lose the magic. Its magic sucks. The modern stuff sounds like what a preamp should sound like: nothing.

Ok, back to bashing turntables that we don't like. Are we at the part where we're bashing linear tracking arms yet?

 

[AvFan]

This thread has certainly fired up a few members! As the OP my goal was to hear from folks who have compared new and vintage entry level (belt drive in particular) turntables and have drawn some conclusions from the exercise. While it is clear there are folks who prefer new and those who prefer vintage I hoped to insert some objectivity into a largely subjective topic by hearing from members who'd already gone through the effort I'm about to go through.

Based upon the few posters who have compared new and vintage entry level TTs I've drawn a few tentative thoughts:

1. The arms on new tables are probably better than the arms on vintage TTs
2. Vintage TTs addressed isolation better than new TTs
3. It is very important to understand the condition of vintage TTs
4. Listen, listen, listen to both new and vintage TTs before forming an opinion

At this point I don't see a general consensus due to the limited number of folks who've done the direct comparison but I hope others will chime in. Thanks!

 

[kermit z]

This thread has certainly fired up a few members! As the OP my goal was to hear from folks who have compared new and vintage entry level (belt drive in particular) turntables and have drawn some conclusions from the exercise. While it is clear there are folks who prefer new and those who prefer vintage I hoped to insert some objectivity into a largely subjective topic by hearing from members who'd already gone through the effort I'm about to go through.

Based upon the few posters who have compared new and vintage entry level TTs I've drawn a few tentative thoughts:

1. The arms on new tables are probably better than the arms on vintage TTs
2. Vintage TTs addressed isolation better than new TTs
3. It is very important to understand the condition of vintage TTs
4. Listen, listen, listen to both new and vintage TTs before forming an opinion

At this point I don't see a general consensus due to the limited number of folks who've done the direct comparison but I hope others will chime in. Thanks!

That was an excellent list:thmbsp: Considering this is 5 pages long:yes: If you have a chance, I would strongly suggest you go have a listen to some new tables. If there are any AK'ers near you, see if they will let you have a listen too.

 

[melofelo]

if i were starting from scratch on a limited budget and buying Used...and sticking with the belt drive theme
I'd be looking at some of the options below starting from the cheapest..

Pioneer PL12d with AT95e or AT110e
Ariston Q deck + Ortofon Om series or perhaps AT110e
Dual CS 505/II Deluxe + Ortofon OM series
Ariston RD50 + Ariston Enigma Arm + AT95e
Rega Planar 2 & RB 250 + rega Bias or preferably AT110e & wall shelf
Rotel RP 830 + AT110e
Dual CS 5000 (depending on price)
Acoustic Research AR EB-101 + AT95e or AT110e (cheapest of the 3 point suspended options and scorable for £80 in mint condition..just add new belt and stylus)
Rega Planar 3 & rb 300 + rega Bias or preferably AT110e & wall shelf
Rotel RP-850/RP-855/RP-955
Thorens TD 280 mk IV
Systemdek IIX with Systemdek Profile ,Rega RB250 or LINN Basik/Akito arm
(more 3 point suspended options..)
Ariston RD 40 with Ariston Opus / Ariston Enigma Arm/ Linn basik or Akito
Ariston RD 80 " "
Ariston RD 60 " "
also the early and late thorens td 160 series and other AR turntables (such as the AR Legend are well worth a look/listen
Linn Axis + Linn Akito/Linn Basik
Manticore Mantra & RB 250
( this gets you into linn sondek/1st generation roksan territory for 1/2 to 2/3 rds the price of admission depending on what price you pay for a mint example...)

beyond that..how deep is your wallet ?

Japanese vintage wise is out of my experience...any model that matches or improves on the basic sound of a well tuned Pioneer PL12D + AT95e or AT110e would be worth a listen...
for the higher spec'd models... I'd ignore the bells, whistles and flashing lights and pay attention to the quality of the tonearm bearings and tonearm design, how quiet and stable the drive system is and whether you need to isolate the base from structure bourne vibration with some diy tweaking or a wallshelf

 

[JohnVF]

This thread has certainly fired up a few members! As the OP my goal was to hear from folks who have compared new and vintage entry level (belt drive in particular) turntables and have drawn some conclusions from the exercise. While it is clear there are folks who prefer new and those who prefer vintage I hoped to insert some objectivity into a largely subjective topic by hearing from members who'd already gone through the effort I'm about to go through.

Based upon the few posters who have compared new and vintage entry level TTs I've drawn a few tentative thoughts:

1. The arms on new tables are probably better than the arms on vintage TTs
2. Vintage TTs addressed isolation better than new TTs
3. It is very important to understand the condition of vintage TTs
4. Listen, listen, listen to both new and vintage TTs before forming an opinion

At this point I don't see a general consensus due to the limited number of folks who've done the direct comparison but I hope others will chime in. Thanks!

I agree with Kermit z, you've really weeded through the debate to find the core of the suggestions. It should really be a choice between "new entry level" and "vintage upper end". With a good spice of 1980s/90s thrown in, like the Systemdek IIX, which is an excellent suggestion up above.

They all sound different. A big DD will sound different than a Rega. You want a table that does its best job without being heard in the final sound. That goes to bearing quality, plinth, arm..everything. And nothing completely stays out of the way so you pick your poison. And everybody likes a different poison...so auditioning in person is the best option. I wouldn't recommend one type over the other....it really depends on the person and there are a lot of capable options.

 

[sushimaster]

I own the following TT's:

Technics 1200 MKII (modded with Cardas tonearm wire)
Technics 1210 M5G (stock)
Thorens TD160 (modded with plywood baseboard, upgraded RCA cables, felt mat)
Rega RP3 with external PSU, Groove Tracer Reference sub platter, Groove Tracer acrylic platter

In my opinion, the Thorens TD160 (with mods) is one of the best bang for the buck TT's out there. In stock form, it's just okay (not bad, but not outstanding). And as some have mentioned, it depends greatly on its mechanical condition. But for the money, a used TD160 (properly modded) can serve up a lot of performance that the costlier, newer tables offer.

 

[majick47]

Here's a discontinued model turntable that probably can be had for the price of a new entry level turntable. VPI HW19JR (belt drive). Not unusual to find them with a decent tonearm from Sumiko, Audioquest etc. Also the VPI HW19MkI and MkII might be close in price. The Jr was entry level in the VPI HW19 line but shared the same base and motor of the higher models with high quality construction, materials and made in the USA. Parts such as heavier plinths/platters etc show up on a regular basis if you should ever want to upgrade the turntable. Also a wide variety of tonearms can be installed on the VPI. The HW19 series was discontinued in the last 5-10 years and many thousands were sold and some parts/accessories are still available from VPI. IMO an impressive belt drive turntable with a high level of build quality, materials, parts and very decent sound performance. Expected maintenance would most likely be replacing the belt for $20, other than that if well cared for nothing much needed.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I did the best of both, I will be soon installing a new Rega RB 250 tonearm on my Technics SP-25. Look forward to listening to that combo, cartridge will be a Ortofon 2M Red.

 

[Anubis]

When it comes to Entry Level TTs I personally prefer Vintage over New. The vintage stuff is just more robust in my opinion and often times better built.
Now if I were after a high-end TT I'd be looking at new (although there are some extremely nice vintage higher-end TTs, but there is also the fact of finding one for sale in the first place).
Just my opinion.

 

[SteveinMN]

I used to hit thrifts all the time like it was an addiction. In that time, I saw 3 turntables, none of which were fully functional, and none of which were worth the $20 they wanted. The goodwill falacy is that the "score" is never divided by the amount of time spent going, and going again, and again and again. If you add up that time, the $100 or $200 for just biting the bullet and paying full price for a nice used turntable on Craigslist or whatever, is in my opinion, pretty worth it. But it was a lesson I learned the hard way.

Same here. Yeah, I was at the TS looking at other things, so checking out the electronics was no big side trip. But I probably could count on one hand the number of TTs I saw which weren't cheap BPC and were functional and were not priced way out of whack for missing dust covers or feet or knobs or counterweights or for having deep scratches on the plinth. None of what I saw -- working or not -- held a candle to what I'm using now (admittedly more expensive cl purchase). And turntables, IMHO, are finicky beasts to get right.

Shop thrifts for the entertainment -- I do -- and count yourself lucky to score. But the person who just wants to play some records moves the odds much higher in their favor by buying something from a dealer in used TTs or a site like this one, or, if they want to learn something about what they're buying, something like cl or kijiji.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

This thread has certainly fired up a few members! As the OP my goal was to hear from folks who have compared new and vintage entry level (belt drive in particular) turntables and have drawn some conclusions from the exercise. While it is clear there are folks who prefer new and those who prefer vintage I hoped to insert some objectivity into a largely subjective topic by hearing from members who'd already gone through the effort I'm about to go through.

Based upon the few posters who have compared new and vintage entry level TTs I've drawn a few tentative thoughts:

1. The arms on new tables are probably better than the arms on vintage TTs
2. Vintage TTs addressed isolation better than new TTs
3. It is very important to understand the condition of vintage TTs
4. Listen, listen, listen to both new and vintage TTs before forming an opinion

At this point I don't see a general consensus due to the limited number of folks who've done the direct comparison but I hope others will chime in. Thanks!

Here's an opinion that I'm sure won't meet with universal favor, but here goes...I disagree with item #2 on your list.

 

[davidro]

Here's an opinion that I'm sure won't meet with universal favor, but here goes...I disagree with item #2 on your list.

Bob, I'm curious. Is there anything that you'd rate vintage tables over modern ones in general?

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

Bob, I'm curious. Is there anything that you'd rate vintage tables over modern ones in general?

To be perfectly candid, I don't really agree with item #1, either. I just figured there's quite enough defense here of vintage turntables without my help. Generalizations don't work very well on this topic.

 

[melofelo]

I disagree with item #2 on your list.

are there are new reasonably prices turntables with some form of vibration isolation that you'd recommend ?
on this side of the pond you can still score a decent 3 point suspended for less than price of a new project debut. or a rega p1

 

[melofelo]

I'm probably the biggest critic of the British entry level "audiophile" turntables and Kent couldn't of said better. IMO they are marketed mainly to first time turntable buyers who will find themselves faced with costly upgrades to make it sound right or they will have to trade up to a higher model that has the features the entry level should of had in the first place.

...this statement probably excludes the 80's and 90's rega planar 2 and rega planar 3 in all fairness...they simply didn't market or advertise their products in any british audio magazine that i know of for almost 20 years...they actually had trouble keeping up with supply and demand without advertising...and were happy to offer a lifetime warranty on their turntables excluding belt... not something you usually get with entry level these days

 

[majick47]

Bob we are all generalizing here re our comments, there is no absolutes across the board, it's about as wide open as our differing tastes in music. Unfotunatly a lot of audio equipment either new or used isn't easly auditioned these days since the demise of many local stores that were devoted solely to audio products. Much of what little we have left is high end/price no object audio salons and big box stores with little in between. The AK fests are a good opportunity to listen to music and equipment and might be the best chance to compare new and vintage turntables. Barter Town has also turned out to be very sucessful for both sellers and buyers. It not unusual to see unsolisted encouraging comments when a nice piece of audio equipment is listed for sale. This should be a sign to someone that is less knowledgable that the item is well regarded/fairly priced and deserves their consideration. Another place to scout out and listen to turntables are record shops who depend on you having the equipment to play the records they sell. Who knows an AK member could live close by and would be delighted to let you listen to their turntable/system, it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[dlaloum]

The comparison is fraught with difficulties....

You can go out and pick up a bottom of the line 1970's TT for $300, and then find a TOTL 80's DD for $30.... so what do you compare and how do you compare it?

The used TT marketplace is highly fashion driven - lots of 70's "woodies" go for substantial amounts, where composite plinth 80's models of a superior lineage go for pennies... they don't look "vintage" enough.

And then there is the anti-Linear Tracker bigotry... also a matter of fashion really - with LT's from Sony, Technics, JVC, etc... which originally sold for $500 to $1000 (1982 dollars!) now lucky if they fetch $100 (2011 dollars).

Also the claims with regards to "arm quality" .... sure there were bottom end rough and ready units around then as there are now (anyone want to talk about the arm quality on an ATLP120?...uke: see http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96782.0)

There are very few arm manufacturers now - which is why you see Jelco and Rega arms on so many different turntables (with tweaks and adjustments by individual manufacturers...).

But in the late 70's there were high levels of competition and huge volumes being manufactured.... the perfect environment to guarantee that the mid-market is high quality. (not even mentioning some of the legendary arms of the top end which are still very much sought after now!)

Like buying a car, the intrinsic value of the new item is less than 50% what you pay for it retail.... which is why it loses that amount of value as you walk (drive) out the store....

When purchasing used the formula is different... Intrinsic value x current fashion factor = market price

We are in the second "valve" period, and all things that "Look" vintage get extra fashion points. Anything designed to "look" modern or high tech loses fashion points.


If you want sound quality value today in the current market - look for early 80's turntables (preferably top of the midrange, or bottom of the top range) of the "high tech" appearance style, preferably linear trackers. - the perfect storm of anti-fashion features.
The end result should cost less than $100 and perform on a par or better than any currently available new TT under around $1000.

On the other hand I have seen a number of postings where the criteria were: good/reasonable sound, great looking vintage style with lots of wood.
And by coincidence here is Denons anniversary DP-A100 - for $2500 you get the exact same arm as is to be found on the ATLP240, and the Stanton ST150..... but you pay an extra $2000 for the shiny wood.... anyone want to discuss the impact of fashion on the market and market prices?


And then there is the issue of auditioning....
Hearing something in a showroom is almost meaningless.

Isolation/Vibration issues are related to the individual audiophiles home environment... and different turntables (all of equal high quality) will respond completely differently to it....

System synergy/matching can completely change the sound of a setup - and the store never has the same setup you do.

The room has a greater overall impact on the sound than anything else with the possible exception of the speakers (and possibly greater than the speakers) - yet an audition is always in a dealers showroom and NOT in your house....

It really comes down to if you want life to be easy - and you want to take something home that works first time.... go with a dealer.

If you want the best possible value for money, and are willing to invest the time and effort in research up front and TLC up back - go used/vintage.

bye for now

David

 

[melofelo]

There are very few arm manufacturers now - which is why you see Jelco and Rega arms on so many different turntables (with tweaks and adjustments by individual manufacturers...).

..and even fewer individuals willing to make them from scratch in their garage out of titanium no less...and sell them for £100 ... not bad for 1980 at all

 

[dlaloum]

What is that arm - it is beautiful! - real sculpture....:drool: