Entry Level Turntables: New vs. Vintage
- Thread starter AvFan
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My suggestion to anybody buying a new turntable would be to sink everything that they can into the best turntable they can find for the money, the exception being a certain amount of luck getting something fantastic for cheap. What's left over can run a decent but not incredibly expense cart while the budget rebuilds itself. I think this will still sound better than spending 1/2 on the cart and 1/2 on the table, assuming some care is taken in choice of turntable.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
For me, the turntable is staying. Cartridges may come and go. I therefore spend less than half on a cartridge as compared to what I spent on the turntable. I bought a wrecked Dynavector 10x4 for $25 and sent it off for the $150 retip at SoundSmith. I bought a Goldring 1042 from England for about $200 and an Eroica for about $250. All these have performed nicely on my P5.
AvFan
Super Member
This is certainly a different recommendation than what I remember from "Back in the day". The ends of the stereo chain, the phono cartridge and the speakers, were the place to spend your money. While everything in between made a difference in the sound it was the speakers and the cartridge that had the most impact. Maybe this advice was solely for entry level systems I could afford at the time. This is one reason why I was interested in comparing entry level belt drives from different eras. Did new TTs make that much difference?
For what its worth I've focused a decent percentage of my money on speakers. I have a pair of custom Selah Audio MTMs that use RAAL ribbons. And I've got a more budget-minded Ortofon 2M Blue (cost for the Ortofon was equal to what I paid for the PL-610) on the recently acquired SL-1200MK2. In between is a rather pedestrian Pioneer SA-8500II integrated amp from 1977 and it sounds pretty good to my ears. I think the old advice may still be appropriate.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
I think the old advice has its limits. My integrated amp was the best upgrade in my system. It's the last item I'd part with if for some reason I had to sell off the system. I had an SL-1200MK2, and my admittedly controversial (around here) opinion is that it imposed its sound on every cartridge I had. It made my Goldring, Ortofon and AT cartridges sound strangely alike. So I, just a regular guy with a regular system, am not quite ready to buy in on the old advice in this case.
I don't disagree with the old advice. I just think that the cartridge, the transducer at the beginning of the chain, needs an excellent turntable to function properly, or at least to live up to its potential. And that a basic cartridge, on a stable turntable/arm without a lot of extraneous vibration will perform better and sound better than an excellent cartridge that is merely feeding a mediocre turntable's vibration into the rest of the system. Certainly a great turntable can be improved by a better cartridge...my comments only apply to where to put the money, cart or table, if its limited. With unlimited funds, sure...buy a great turntable and a top flight cart that will perform to its potential on it.
Well things havn't changed so much over the years - nor have the differing opinions!!!
The least "perfect" items in the chain are the speakers and the cartridge - the transducers....
Minor mechanical variations in these can have very substantial impacts on the sound..
A speaker that can achieve a real life frequency response flat within +/-10db is an exceptional beast...
Many high end speakers have trouble achieving +/-20db across the audible range (and I am not even worrying too much about sub 40Hz - good article on this topic at http://www.regonaudio.com/Audio in Modern Times.pdf)
So even if the table is constraining the level of performance achievable by the cartridge - the cartridge is (IMO) the first port of call.
As a starting point a decent turntable must provide:
1) Stable speed platter, no bearing noise/rumble (or below audible ... say -70db)
2) Tonearm with good bearings and no bearing noise
3) Good isolation from external vibrations, and damping of internal vibrations
If you have all the above (and these are achieved very well by a huge number of vintage turntables available cheaply).... then the next step is to get a cartridge that properly matches the arm you have.
If starting with nothing - ie no TT and no Cartridge, I would set some selection criteria to help.... Direct Drive/Belt Drive, Suspended/Solid, Low/Mid/High Mass arm etc...
but you most certainly can find a TT that meets these three criteria at under $50... course if you add a particular aesthetic appearance, and other criteria, either the price will start to rise, or the time required to find one will increase substantially - but if sound quality is your only criteria, this is EASY.
Once you have those three criteria met, a budget of between $30 and $200 will get you an excellent cartridge or replacement stylus - and performance will be good.
How Good? - well that is a completely different question....
Along with whether the "flavour" of "goodness" suits you!
(what is better... a large SUV or a 2 door sportscar.... they both handle very well those tasks that are their respective strengths....)
bye for now
David
The least "perfect" items in the chain are the speakers and the cartridge - the transducers....
Minor mechanical variations in these can have very substantial impacts on the sound..
A speaker that can achieve a real life frequency response flat within +/-10db is an exceptional beast...
Many high end speakers have trouble achieving +/-20db across the audible range (and I am not even worrying too much about sub 40Hz - good article on this topic at http://www.regonaudio.com/Audio in Modern Times.pdf)
So even if the table is constraining the level of performance achievable by the cartridge - the cartridge is (IMO) the first port of call.
As a starting point a decent turntable must provide:
1) Stable speed platter, no bearing noise/rumble (or below audible ... say -70db)
2) Tonearm with good bearings and no bearing noise
3) Good isolation from external vibrations, and damping of internal vibrations
If you have all the above (and these are achieved very well by a huge number of vintage turntables available cheaply).... then the next step is to get a cartridge that properly matches the arm you have.
If starting with nothing - ie no TT and no Cartridge, I would set some selection criteria to help.... Direct Drive/Belt Drive, Suspended/Solid, Low/Mid/High Mass arm etc...
but you most certainly can find a TT that meets these three criteria at under $50... course if you add a particular aesthetic appearance, and other criteria, either the price will start to rise, or the time required to find one will increase substantially - but if sound quality is your only criteria, this is EASY.
Once you have those three criteria met, a budget of between $30 and $200 will get you an excellent cartridge or replacement stylus - and performance will be good.
How Good? - well that is a completely different question....
Along with whether the "flavour" of "goodness" suits you!
(what is better... a large SUV or a 2 door sportscar.... they both handle very well those tasks that are their respective strengths....)
bye for now
David
That is your opinion. I don't share it, even remotely. And that is where differences in this argument come from. I think there are excellent vintage turntables, but they are neither overly common and they are rarely 'cheap'.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
Whether all those turntables or other audio gear floating around for cheap sound good will always remain a matter of opinion. When I made the change from a Marantz 6300 to a Music Hall MMF-5 it was a bit of an eye opener...and the MMF-5 was nearly entry level. It cost me less than I made parting out the 6300.
I went shopping for a TT about a year back...
Picked up what was in its day a TOTL Toshiba DD for $30 within a week of starting to look - and it came with an Ortofon VMS30mkII.
I have since continued to see excellent unfashionable tables go cheaply.
The ones that have the silver/plastic plinth (regardless of the quality of what is under that plinth) - tend to go for a song, unless they are a Technics SL1200 (or close relative).
As soon as some wood or wood veneer is involved (fashion kicks in) the price rises dramatically - but still tends to be under $300 for a table of around the level of quality/performance of a new SL1200. ie tables that sold during the 80's at pricing within +/- 25% of the price of the SL1200. (I am using the SL1200 as a generic benchmark of acceptable performance)
The Australian market tends to be more expensive than the North American and European market... but here are some examples, complete auctions from ebay:
Akai AP-Q50 (silver DD.... typical unfashionable styling) $50
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-...Turntables&hash=item415e11138a#ht_5743wt_1139
Yamaha P05 (needs belt and needle) - no bids $10
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Yamaha-P...lectronics&hash=item3a6b4373ea#ht_1639wt_1139
Onkyo CP100 - $35
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ONKYO-CP...Electronics&hash=item27bf000983#ht_500wt_1192
Pioneer PL740 - $75
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pioneer-...Electronics&hash=item3cbcae0cde#ht_500wt_1192
Technics SL-23 $200
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TECHNICS..._Turntables&hash=item3a6ad963dd#ht_500wt_1192
I could keep going.... but to put it simply, any of the above, fitted with an AT95e, or an Ortofon Omega ($30) - will make excellent music,
And in terms of value for money, they are totally unbeatable.
Can you get better performance for more money - sure.
Can you find TT's among these (budget of $200 max) that have potential to be fettled into a TT that can match or beat a $1500 new TT - absolutely. - But you have to know what to look for.
Will an off the shelf retail $1500 TT/Cartridge combo, beat any of the above with the AT95e or Omega - I should hope so!
The questionable area is the grey zone between around $500 and $1000 - at that price you can get some really fine used TT's (if you know what to look for) - and the retail TT's are nice, but not spectacular.... if the retail offering is well matched (TT to Arm to platform & system etc...) it may outperform a similarly priced used TT which is a random assemblage of unmatched components.... But again at that price a properly matched and selected used system will outperform retail at ANY given price point - after all, when you buy retail 45% of the price is margin that goes to pay for the service you receive..... So you should expect to have to pay at least 45% more than used pricing to get matching performance retail.
Bye for now
David
My comments were to say that a $75 cart will sound better on a table like the MMF-5 than a $500 cart will sound on a very basic $75 ebay turntable who's specs suggest it will sound better than it actually does. Put that $500 cart on the MMF-5 though and you'll likely have something really special. And no, I don't think there's a table among those you listed that would beat a $1500 new turntable. Not even close, if you buy wisely on the new one.
I've played around with a bunch of entry/mid-level vintage turntables and I thought that very few of them were a better choice than saving and buying something like the Music Hall. They simply didn't sound as good as the numbers. There's something to be said for being more patient and getting one of the rarer, nicer vintage decks like a Yamaha YP-d8 or Pioneer PL-630. They're not incredibly expensive but they're not common nor cheap and you have to know to look for them. I got my Sony 2251 off of CL for $100, so I know this stuff is out there...but just settling on a mid level CEC rebadge is not advice I agree on. Just save a couple hundred and get something you can be happy with for longer, and that will support better carts.
I've played around with a bunch of entry/mid-level vintage turntables and I thought that very few of them were a better choice than saving and buying something like the Music Hall. They simply didn't sound as good as the numbers. There's something to be said for being more patient and getting one of the rarer, nicer vintage decks like a Yamaha YP-d8 or Pioneer PL-630. They're not incredibly expensive but they're not common nor cheap and you have to know to look for them. I got my Sony 2251 off of CL for $100, so I know this stuff is out there...but just settling on a mid level CEC rebadge is not advice I agree on. Just save a couple hundred and get something you can be happy with for longer, and that will support better carts.
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Sure but for the same money - I can pick up a Rega RP3 for the same price, upgraded with a Grace arm and fitted with an AT150MLx - at a local retailer (but used) .... so for my $800 to $900 I can pick up an almost current model with several $00 of upgrades and cartridges at the same price.... (and that includes retailers margin...)
The used item still has the higher value for money....
And with a budget in the $800 to $900 (assuming a retailer is NOT involved) you can get some seriously top end gear from the 80's.... which may outperform either of the MMF5 or RP3 both of which are lower/mid line tables.
bye for now
David
Amen :thmbsp:
Artie
Super Member
My Pioneer PL-610 can't be repaired.The cueing and auto return functions are intertwined and include some plastic parts that have degraded over the last 34 years.
I don't mean any disrespect to your tech, in any way, but I find this hard to believe. Plastic parts don't really "degrade". The grease on them certainly will, but not the parts themselves. IMHO.
It's a darn shame you're on the other side of the country. I'd happily take a shot at this for free, but the cost of shipping two directions, and the potential for shipping damage, pretty much makes this a no-go.
Do you have any "tinkering skills" whatsoever? If you were careful, I bet you could disassemble this, clean up the parts, and regrease them to make this work.
Maybe. I just hate to see this fine old table go to "dump" for a cueing mechanism.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
You've presented yet another comparison of apples to oranges. I spent less on the MMF-5, which I bought used, than customary prices for a 6300 and less than I made parting out a 6300. It also cost less than any TOTL vintage Japanese table I've seen a decade. And IMO, it sounded better than the revered SL-1200MK2.
I think the Thorens TD-160 and its variants (TD-165, TD-145) are still a steal, even if they cost double what they did a few years back.
Heck, there's a TD-125 with a Victor UA7045 tonearm on that auction site right now with a very reasonable BIN price. I can't say for sure if it would sound better than something like an MMF-5 (I think it would), but it's a safe bet that it'll hold its value better if you didn't like it for some reason and wanted to swap out.
And that's where -- if you know what you're doing -- vintage is a better bet.
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
Seems folks may have missed the OPs update back in post #92:
Well, congratulations!. I'm looking forward to hearing what you think.
Sorry -misunderstood - I though you meant the MMF5 was purchased at new retail pricing....