You've perfectly described the Mitsubishi LT-20. One the best budget buys in turntables around (but get the better LT-30 if it pops up). It truly is the perfect storm. The LT-20 is not top of the line, its not from a brand that the brand fetishists chase, its LT arm is looked down upon by a bunch of know-it-all traditionalists that have never used it...and it sounds very good.
Entry Level Turntables: New vs. Vintage
- Thread starter AvFan
- Start date
You've perfectly described the Mitsubishi LT-20. One the best budget buys in turntables around (but get the better LT-30 if it pops up). It truly is the perfect storm. The LT-20 is not top of the line, its not from a brand that the brand fetishists chase, its LT arm is looked down upon by a bunch of know-it-all traditionalists that have never used it...and it sounds very good.
melofelo
Addicted Member
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With the greatest respect for the Mitsu LT's - I prefer my Revox....
4g ULM unipivot LT arm, with magnetic damping.... High quality DD motor in a sprung chassis...
People seem to unfortunately have started waking up to these.... a year ago they were going for $200, recently I have seen them advertised for $500 to $800.... at which price level they are good value, but not the killer steal value you can find in a "perfect storm" vintage TT.
OOps no - ignore that - yeah those Revox LT's... utter crap.... crabs its way across the disk, with all those clearly audible flaws like all LT's have....
(gotta do my bit to keep prices reasonable....)
And let's not forget those rubbish B&O's....
bye for now
David
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
In my world which encompasses gimpy, spastic feet, and wood floors, there is one solution which works for me. A broadcast deck in a broadcast desk. With lots of mass.
My newly implemented solution includes sorbothane pads under a concrete slab at the bottom, an ikea lack bottom shelf table directly (spike) on the slab, and a platform above that table floating on NeoLev magnetic levitation feet....
Marvelous improvement on my sprung vintage floor - with the unsprung JVC.
The Revox on the other hand never seemed to be bothered by floor transmitted vibrations - but then it is a sprung table.... - at some point I will do some measurements to see how sensitive the Revox really is!
bye for now
David
Marvelous improvement on my sprung vintage floor - with the unsprung JVC.
The Revox on the other hand never seemed to be bothered by floor transmitted vibrations - but then it is a sprung table.... - at some point I will do some measurements to see how sensitive the Revox really is!
bye for now
David
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
Although I wouldn't necessarily recommend any of the entry-level models by the current major brands (Pro-Ject, Rega, Music Hall), that only refers to the very first models in their lineups. Please bear in mind you're on a site where the majority of users tend to go for vintage audio, so there's a big bias here.
IMO if you're looking at something in the ~$400, vintage may not be a bad idea. But much higher than that, if you ever plan on upgrading cartridges in the future, my experience is that new turntables yield better sonic results in general. Occasionally I see complaints about speed stability, and all I can tell you is that I'm 30 years old and I have damn sensitive ears, and my $700 Pro-Ject turntable never audibly wavered even before I got the Speed Box for it, which just locks in the speed. Maybe it's an issue with Rega turntables, I don't know.
IMO if you're looking at something in the ~$400, vintage may not be a bad idea. But much higher than that, if you ever plan on upgrading cartridges in the future, my experience is that new turntables yield better sonic results in general. Occasionally I see complaints about speed stability, and all I can tell you is that I'm 30 years old and I have damn sensitive ears, and my $700 Pro-Ject turntable never audibly wavered even before I got the Speed Box for it, which just locks in the speed. Maybe it's an issue with Rega turntables, I don't know.
Pio1980
AK Member
I'm not really a fan of the REXOX Linatrack (the ill-concieved cartridge carrier itself mainly) and don't recommend it to generally anyone due to it's "arm" design quirks, general neediness for expert overhauls, and difficult set-up procedure not for the timid or clumsy. For someone adept it's an interesting and quirky record playing gadget like the similarly needy H-K RABCO players for those that can handle their issues they can be fascinating. Properly working they can give satisfactory results but the better Japanese LTs incl the upper-end Technics P-mount close-and-play LTs (they won't take a hand-built MC, so what) are a better more stable, more trouble-free approach IMHO. The B&O LTs are generally money pits with their own issues IMHO, AYOR!.
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vinyl1
Super Member
I second used high-end. That is where you can find some real values. Look for SOTA, VPI, Oracle from the 1990-2005 period.
Sanc
I'm Hiding in Honduras
My first (and currently only playing TT) was/is a Thorens TD165. These suspended belt driven turntables definitely do require more maintenance than say a direct drive, or even a non suspended belt driven, but that is sort of what I was going for.
Vintage Thorens when taken proper care of will last forever and play amazing, mine still isn't totally finished being tuned up and all but even at this point it still sounds awesome and I can't wait for it to be done. The benefit of this needed maintenance is that it forces you to learn how to properly take care of and maintain a hardcore analog device which takes practice. It breaks you into it and forces you to learn the ropes. It may not be super easy to learn it all but I would say 90% of what I've learned is right off these forums. And lets say I do mess up my Thorens, hope not, but lets say I do, I didn't spend a fortune on it at all which you can't say about a more pricey table for your first.
My 2 Cents. I have that philosophy about any device purchased for the first time that requires maintenance. Go for a relatively cheap product that forces you to learn how to properly take care of and maintain which results in outstanding performance. All about patience.
Vintage Thorens when taken proper care of will last forever and play amazing, mine still isn't totally finished being tuned up and all but even at this point it still sounds awesome and I can't wait for it to be done. The benefit of this needed maintenance is that it forces you to learn how to properly take care of and maintain a hardcore analog device which takes practice. It breaks you into it and forces you to learn the ropes. It may not be super easy to learn it all but I would say 90% of what I've learned is right off these forums. And lets say I do mess up my Thorens, hope not, but lets say I do, I didn't spend a fortune on it at all which you can't say about a more pricey table for your first.
My 2 Cents. I have that philosophy about any device purchased for the first time that requires maintenance. Go for a relatively cheap product that forces you to learn how to properly take care of and maintain which results in outstanding performance. All about patience.
I once worked in audio sales where I had a chance to compare turntables customers already owned with new models they were curious about, but this was about 20 years ago, and our entry-level 'tables were models like the Linn Basik and Revolver (no one liked their old turntable better). More recently, I've been able to demonstrate the superiority of entry-level Music Hall and Rega turntables to friends who were skeptical that it could make a difference.
Part of the problem on getting a consensus on any given piece of vintage equipment is variability of condition. Maybe a 30 or 40 year old turntable, when new, would have outperformed a new, entry-level deck, but the things that make a sonic difference in turntables are all subject to wear: platter bearings, arm bearings, drive system, suspension parts, and even the body that holds it all together could be compromised by glued joints beginning to dry and separate. One sample may sound great if it has relatively low hours of use and was correctly maintained; another identical model may sound bad if it was abused or is simply worn out.
With vintage there's no way to know that your turntable is performing as new, but if you do a comparative audition, you can at least tell whether it's current performance standard is one you're happy with. But even then, how much longer will it keep that performance level? With a new turntable, you can expect that it will perform to factory-expectations, and it will likely maintain that performance for 15 to 20 years. If you start with something already decades old, how much more service will it give you? If you're looking for a turntable to make you happy for the long-term, I'd buy new; if you're looking for something to get by with for a while, then a vintage model could be a good solution, provided you have a chance to audition it first.
edit: there are older turntables for which new parts are available, so if anything is wrong or becomes a problem, it can be fixed. One example is the Linn LP12. Any of its parts can be replaced and the deck brought back to like-new condition. That may also be possible for other brands, like Sota, VPI, Rega, etc.
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A new turntable might be the most logical choice since it is new, warrantied etc. But on the other hand some people are also looking for something that has a certain appearance/feel that many new turntables don't have and possibly can only be found in older turntables. A new VPI Classic might be an example of a turntable returning to its roots in a general apperance. Bright colored plinths dont appeal to everyone, chrome, wood or other visual aspects might be more in keeping with what they want. If an older turntable was used in a home enviroment by a responsible, mature adults that properly cared for and operated the chances are good it will still be in good shape and perform close to when it was new depending on design/materials/construction. I'd still plan on at least doing some basic preventive maintenance and cleaning at the minimum and consider having a complete checkup/overhaul of all components to ensure a very long life.
AvFan
Super Member
As the OP on this thread I thought I'd post an update as my search for a new turntable recently gained a sense of urgency.
My Pioneer PL-610 can't be repaired.
The cueing and auto return functions are intertwined and include some plastic parts that have degraded over the last 34 years. The shop made a sincere effort to repair it or modify it to keep just the cueing mechanism but without success. Sadly, it is now a "parts" machine.:worried:
I sought the repair shop's recommendations on what I should look for in a new TT. I thought "Who better to tell me than someone in the business and who sees a lot of turntables?". For new he said others he knew were very pleased with their Regas and when I mentioned the Technics SL-1200 he heartily endorsed it. The SL-1200 being direct drive would not qualify per my OP but it might closely match my PL-610 in performance. Long story short I purchased a nearly new SL-1200MK2 yesterday after using the shop's suggestions on how to check the tonearm and motor speed (also #3 on my list in an earlier post of things to do with turntables).
I've not given up my quest to compare new and vintage belt drive TTs. I also purchased a Pioneer PL-115D that needs some TLC but does work. This TT is destined for one of my two adult kids who wants to explore vinyl but not before I use it to compare new and vintage belt drive TTs. Any additional insights into the next phase of this process are welcome.
My Pioneer PL-610 can't be repaired.
The cueing and auto return functions are intertwined and include some plastic parts that have degraded over the last 34 years. The shop made a sincere effort to repair it or modify it to keep just the cueing mechanism but without success. Sadly, it is now a "parts" machine.:worried:I sought the repair shop's recommendations on what I should look for in a new TT. I thought "Who better to tell me than someone in the business and who sees a lot of turntables?". For new he said others he knew were very pleased with their Regas and when I mentioned the Technics SL-1200 he heartily endorsed it. The SL-1200 being direct drive would not qualify per my OP but it might closely match my PL-610 in performance. Long story short I purchased a nearly new SL-1200MK2 yesterday after using the shop's suggestions on how to check the tonearm and motor speed (also #3 on my list in an earlier post of things to do with turntables).
I've not given up my quest to compare new and vintage belt drive TTs. I also purchased a Pioneer PL-115D that needs some TLC but does work. This TT is destined for one of my two adult kids who wants to explore vinyl but not before I use it to compare new and vintage belt drive TTs. Any additional insights into the next phase of this process are welcome.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Regarding the Rega tables, the newer ones are better on speed constancy. Especially so on the lower than P5 end. The RP series are good buys. The RP1 and RP3 are improved over the Planar earlier models. And nice choices if you like a new turntable.
AvFan that was an excellent recommendation by the repair shop for you to purchase a SL-1200Mk2 and you won't regret it for a second. I doubt you will find much difference between a new belt drive turntable and a vintage belt drive if all else is equal. There has been little if any real progress in turntable design in 30 years just a rehash of what was old is now new again, it just looks a little different and costs more today.
melofelo
Addicted Member
+1
the only part of the entire turntable setup that you should 'hear' movement from...is the stylus following a record groove rotating at a constant a fixed speed...
anything else you hear from a turntable is unwanted vibration...and has nothing to do with musical reproduction...which is why i think cartridges are the least important part of the turntable.
you can draw with a pencil much more easily if you are not sitting on a moving train...how expensive the pencil is doesn't matter much if the train is constantly moving.
muchachos
Active Member
But you'll be able to get a LOT more detail in if you have a sharp lead than if you have a dull one...
You can use analogies all day, but they don't really teach us much new.
Not on inferior turntables...they'll probably sound the same, and the better cartridge might even sound worse. I actually think the drawing on a train analogy was right on, and mirrors my experience with turntables. A great cartridge on a mediocre turntable is worse than a mediocre cartridge on a great turntable. Some pretty basic carts have sounded wonderful on my VPI.