The suggestion to go listen to turntables at audio shops is a good one, besides new they probably have some preowned turntables that may range in age from a few weeks to 40 years old. Ask the sales person to let you hear the best highend turntables in the shop, it will be out of your price range but this will give you a good basis to hear what a well made/designed turntable is capable of. You won't be wasteing your time, now when you go back to the turntables that you can afford you will be listening to see how close they come to that highend turntable in sound/performance. While your there ask the sales person if you can purchase a copy of one of the records that they used to demo the high end turntable. Armed with this record and hopefully the sound of that costly turntable embedded in your memory your ready to listen to turntables in your price bracket. You will be surprised at how close some turntables come and how far away other turntables are from that big buck turntable. Most new turntables are well reviewed in the audio press, for older/vintage turntables almost all of the reviews were prior to the net and I'd suggest you track down reviews from Audio magazine and Stereo Review. Online reviews by owners of new turntables are good but try to sort out if the purchasers of turntables were first time buyers of a turntable or seasoned owners with multiple turntables under their belt. If this was their first turntable and they had only the recommendation of other first time owners that isn't a lot of experience/knowledge to base your purchase on.
Entry Level Turntables: New vs. Vintage
- Thread starter AvFan
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ejman
Super Member
I'm not sure if this qualifies anywhere in the spectrum of entry level new vs. vintage but many consider the Rega P3 that I have an entry level turntable and my Lenco L75 certainly qualifies as vintage since it was built in the early 70's. Let me say right out that both sound excellent. But they are very different in presentation. The Rega is very musical and easy to listen to but the Lenco is so punchy and dynamic while retaining the music flow that I end up listening mostly to the Lenco. Cost? The Lenco was $225 plus about $100 for a Decca International Tonearm. The Rega was about 2.5 times that. I think that a well chosen vintage turntable can certainly be more cost effective than a new turntable but, you have to know what your are getting and how to bring it up to a decent level of performance. Vintage plus knowledge= great results at a reasonable cost. If the knowledge is not there, I think an entry level Rega/Music Hall/Project table makes sense.
I used to hit thrifts all the time like it was an addiction. In that time, I saw 3 turntables, none of which were fully functional, and none of which were worth the $20 they wanted. The goodwill falacy is that the "score" is never divided by the amount of time spent going, and going again, and again and again. If you add up that time, the $100 or $200 for just biting the bullet and paying full price for a nice used turntable on Craigslist or whatever, is in my opinion, pretty worth it. But it was a lesson I learned the hard way.
I'm probably the biggest critic of the British entry level "audiophile" turntables and Kent couldn't of said better. IMO they are marketed mainly to first time turntable buyers who will find themselves faced with costly upgrades to make it sound right or they will have to trade up to a higher model that has the features the entry level should of had in the first place. A great marketing plan for the mfg but not so great for the buyer who will get hosed in the process.
I have yet to read in any of your posts whether or not you have any direct experience with these tables, of any length. Do you? Your criticism is not unfounded on some level, but they are not that bad, and their arms usually give them a step up over many vintage decks, if some attention is payed to isolation.
chicks
Lunatic Member
My take, as you might imagine, is different. 
I've found many vintage turntables at the thrifts and on CL. I happen to enjoy the time spent on fixing them up - it's a part of the hobby. Stopping at the GW doesn't take any extra time for me, it's on the way home from work.
I've found Pro-Ject Debut's and Music Hall MMF's, which are decent enough entry-level decks, but I find them utterly boring to look at - an important part of a system, to me, is how it looks.
I've found two Dual 1019's, and a 1219. Highly recommend leaving them at the thrift if they aren't 100% functional, if you aren't very mechanically inclined. Fully functional Duals, picked up for $10 or $20, are highly profitable. Non functional Duals aren't worth much.
Common, ordinary, plasticy Quartz Japanese decks are a dime a dozen - leave 'em. Better, wood based decks, like the JVC QL-A75, and Pioneer PL-71, are highly desirable, better built, and quite profitable if fully functional.
What I'm finding (and this is purely IMHO), is that the simpler the design, the better. The electronics in those Quartz decks are going to fail at some point - and lots of the parts in them are unobtanium. I loved my JVC QL-A75 and Pioneer PL-71, but I know they will fail one day, so sold them (for a lot more than I bought them for).
The changers, like the Duals, are just too darn mechanically complex. Again, if you find a fully functional one, they perform well. IMHO, though, sell it and use the profits for either a new deck or a simpler, belt or idler drive vintage.
So, to my current decks, the "keepers". The Empire 398. Two moving parts. Great bearing. Good tonearm that's easily upgradeable. Great deck that can be had for $300 or so (needing work - I didn't pay anything near that amount, natch). The "new" Pioneer PL-A35. Belt drive, two motors, fully automatic, far simpler than the Duals. A keeper? Just got it, but so far, I sure prefer it to the modern audiophile starter decks. Personal opinion, of course.
Just my 2 cents.
I've found many vintage turntables at the thrifts and on CL. I happen to enjoy the time spent on fixing them up - it's a part of the hobby. Stopping at the GW doesn't take any extra time for me, it's on the way home from work. I've found Pro-Ject Debut's and Music Hall MMF's, which are decent enough entry-level decks, but I find them utterly boring to look at - an important part of a system, to me, is how it looks.
I've found two Dual 1019's, and a 1219. Highly recommend leaving them at the thrift if they aren't 100% functional, if you aren't very mechanically inclined. Fully functional Duals, picked up for $10 or $20, are highly profitable. Non functional Duals aren't worth much.
Common, ordinary, plasticy Quartz Japanese decks are a dime a dozen - leave 'em. Better, wood based decks, like the JVC QL-A75, and Pioneer PL-71, are highly desirable, better built, and quite profitable if fully functional.
What I'm finding (and this is purely IMHO), is that the simpler the design, the better. The electronics in those Quartz decks are going to fail at some point - and lots of the parts in them are unobtanium. I loved my JVC QL-A75 and Pioneer PL-71, but I know they will fail one day, so sold them (for a lot more than I bought them for).
The changers, like the Duals, are just too darn mechanically complex. Again, if you find a fully functional one, they perform well. IMHO, though, sell it and use the profits for either a new deck or a simpler, belt or idler drive vintage.
So, to my current decks, the "keepers". The Empire 398. Two moving parts. Great bearing. Good tonearm that's easily upgradeable. Great deck that can be had for $300 or so (needing work - I didn't pay anything near that amount, natch). The "new" Pioneer PL-A35. Belt drive, two motors, fully automatic, far simpler than the Duals. A keeper? Just got it, but so far, I sure prefer it to the modern audiophile starter decks. Personal opinion, of course.
Just my 2 cents.
My take, as you might imagine, is different.
I've found Pro-Ject Debut's and Music Hall MMF's, which are decent enough entry-level decks, but I find them utterly boring to look at - an important part of a system, to me, is how it looks.
I've found two Dual 1019's, and a 1219. Highly recommend leaving them at the thrift if they aren't 100% functional, if you aren't very mechanically inclined. Fully functional Duals, picked up for $10 or $20, are highly profitable. Non functional Duals aren't worth much.
Common, ordinary, plasticy Quartz Japanese decks are a dime a dozen - leave 'em. Better, wood based decks, like the JVC QL-A75, and Pioneer PL-71, are highly desirable, better built, and quite profitable if fully functional.
What I'm finding (and this is purely IMHO), is that the simpler the design, the better. The electronics in those Quartz decks are going to fail at some point - and lots of the parts in them are unobtanium. I loved my JVC QL-A75 and Pioneer PL-71, but I know they will fail one day, so sold them (for a lot more than I bought them for).
The changers, like the Duals, are just too darn mechanically complex. Again, if you find a fully functional one, they perform well. IMHO, though, sell it and use the profits for either a new deck or a simpler, belt or idler drive vintage.
So, to my current decks, the "keepers". The Empire 398. Two moving parts. Great bearing. Good tonearm that's easily upgradeable. Great deck that can be had for $300 or so (needing work - I didn't pay anything near that amount, natch). The "new" Pioneer PL-A35. Belt drive, two motors, fully automatic, far simpler than the Duals. A keeper? Just got it, but so far, I sure prefer it to the modern audiophile starter decks. Personal opinion, of course.
Just my 2 cents.
In regards to this and my earlier post about thrifting...I just think its better for somebody who wants a vintage deck to do some research, learn what they can, and then seek out something like the Empire 398 instead of relying on the luck of the draw at goodwill. I think there will likely be a better success ratio that way, but obviously at a bit more expense. The time that would have been spent going to thrifts all the time, spent instead reading about vintage turntables. Vintage is the way to go, IMHO, if you want to spend less than $500...but you have to know what to look for. (and the entry level belt drives from Rega, etc, aren't bad if you just want plug and play...and to make listening your hobby instead of collecting turntables...which we've all gotten sucked into.).
Out thrifts here are barren, though. But our craigslist has some gems.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
I think you're misusing the word "critic". A critic ordinarily has some valid opinion formed with some reasonable thought or immediate experience with something. You haven't demonstrated any valid knowledge of any kind on the topic.
davidro
Lunatic Member
I've had an entry Rega brand-new. It was frustrating in many ways. Sure it was 'musical' but I somehow suspect that was because I was told it was so by Stereophile. I wouldn't have felt so bad if it was say $50. But I paid 10 times more.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
I have owned turntables, tonearms, and cartridges both vintage and modern. Rega's original USA importer, Lauermann Audio was in The Old City in Knoxville, one hour from my house. Mr. Lauermann was super nice, he respected me and my feelings about record reproduction. I got to hear every model of classic Rega at length. I was loaned most if not all models for 6 months to a year at my home. I listened to them, lived with them, and in many ways enjoyed them.
First rule of mine with vinyl playback, if the speed is not stable, runs fast, or is wavery, the turntable motor or the entire turntable IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. I don't care how good it is otherwise. IF YOU NEED A SPEEDBOX to make it acceptable, IT SHOULD BE STANDARD EQUIPMENT WITH THAT TURNTABLE. End of discussion. If my old $69 new in 1973, AR XA is stable on speed and can accept a superb tonearm. Surely, these new $500-$900 turntables MUST be as good on the fundamentals. A quality turntable MUST ROTATE at ACCURATE SPEED consistently, it MUST BE A GOOD SUPPORT for the tonearm you love. It must be durable, reliable and easily maintained. Otherwise, WHY SHOULD YOU BUY IT?
First rule of mine with vinyl playback, if the speed is not stable, runs fast, or is wavery, the turntable motor or the entire turntable IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. I don't care how good it is otherwise. IF YOU NEED A SPEEDBOX to make it acceptable, IT SHOULD BE STANDARD EQUIPMENT WITH THAT TURNTABLE. End of discussion. If my old $69 new in 1973, AR XA is stable on speed and can accept a superb tonearm. Surely, these new $500-$900 turntables MUST be as good on the fundamentals. A quality turntable MUST ROTATE at ACCURATE SPEED consistently, it MUST BE A GOOD SUPPORT for the tonearm you love. It must be durable, reliable and easily maintained. Otherwise, WHY SHOULD YOU BUY IT?
The difference here, is that you've owned this deck and have the experience with it to offer criticism.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
Why is it so important to so many people here to tell others their gear sucks?
Because its relaxed musicality would lull you into not YELLING AT US
Points well taken, SIR! (please keep in mind the smiley...
and happy listening to your speed correct decks.). We all have the areas of compromise that we choose to live in. I'll take a bit less speed stability for a better arm, personally. Some like you, want just the opposite. The best is to find a table with almost no compromise, but those are either new and expensive, old and only a bit less expensive, or simply hard to find cheaply because usually the secret's out.
davidro
Lunatic Member
While I wasn't intending to do that (I didn't disclose the specific model) it can be informative to someone new to this, like the OP.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
This whole thing about harping on the Speed Box doesn't make any sense. All it does it ensure consistent power frequency. Whatever is corrected by it would be the same thing any AC motor experiences - nothing specific to one manufacturer's turntables.
davidro
Lunatic Member
I think there is more than one way to criticise things. But I do agree having direct experience is a desirable base upon which to criticise gears especially when it comes to this hobby because, after all, we're not doing some theory classes here
We're supposed to do this
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
My timing on that remark might have made it look like I was reacting specifically to you. Actually, I've been thinking about this tendency all night.
Everywhere in this forum I run into the same thing. Someone told me vintage ARC amps are better than modern ARC amps, in direct response to my comment about my modern one. I once started a thread about my thoughts on my new headphone amp and someone chimed in to say that when I want a really good one I should look into one like his. A rather addled few in this forum go around making inane comments about certain turntables with which they have zero experience and then repeating the same old blabber at VA, too. It's all over the place.
Does anyone here walk into an acquaintance's house and say, hey...my TV is better than that? Look out the window and say...Is that your new Camaro? My '76 model is better. New cars suck and they cost more. Plus, they're made in China.
davidro
Lunatic Member
Us males (the majority of this forum I'd imagine) are supposed/intended/designed to brag about the comparative size of you-know-what so it's no real surprise
But come on this place is much more civil than other forums I know. You should try forums like Mixed Martial Arts forums
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
Us males (the majority of this forum I'd imagine) are supposed/intended/designed to brag about the comparative size of you-know-what so it's no real surprise
But come on this place is much more civil than other forums I know. You should try forums like Mixed Martial Arts forums
I don't have a problem with how civil this forum is. People here seem to me to actually mean well, oddly enough, when they tell you their amp is better than yours.