ESS AMT-1 Tower Restoration
GabeD
Active Member
The Mellow Tone fabric is very nice stuff. It is their premium version. I'm sure had I used the cheap stuff I would be running into this issue but so far so good.
GabeD
Active Member
Several million staples later, I have a matching pair!
The Mellowtone fabric really did a great job at blocking the light and looking even when lightly stretched. I am very pleased with the quality of it.
They look great but need that finishing touch. The original badges were long gone on this set. Fortunately there are reproductions made. $9 on ebay and we are in business. Thanks Burton!
They look very good and match the photos of the originals that I have seen online. Even came with double sided tape to hold them on.
Now we are looking more complete! These things are so cool!
The last thing to make these completely finished it to address the veneer on the feet and tops. The tops are pretty heavily scratched and were used as plant stands at some point so sanding is in order.
Does anyone know what the correct stain/color/finish is for these ESS products?
The Mellowtone fabric really did a great job at blocking the light and looking even when lightly stretched. I am very pleased with the quality of it.
They look great but need that finishing touch. The original badges were long gone on this set. Fortunately there are reproductions made. $9 on ebay and we are in business. Thanks Burton!
They look very good and match the photos of the originals that I have seen online. Even came with double sided tape to hold them on.
Now we are looking more complete! These things are so cool!
The last thing to make these completely finished it to address the veneer on the feet and tops. The tops are pretty heavily scratched and were used as plant stands at some point so sanding is in order.
Does anyone know what the correct stain/color/finish is for these ESS products?
jcidave
Well-Known Member
These do look really nice. Great job on the grills. They do look updated. I don't know the original finish. They look like walnut to me, but there are different kinds of walnut. Maybe send a message to Ricky at ESS. You could try one of those wax furniture touch-up color sticks from the hardware stores on the edges that are missing veneer. The finish dressing I have had good experience with is Tung oil. Minnwax is one brand. It camouflages a number of ills without doing a lot of extra work.
Koen Dekkers
New Member
all this information is so incredible .......... thanks a lot for sharing, makes life a lot easier!!!
jcidave
Well-Known Member
Koen: First, welcome to AK. If you are working on a AMT 1Tower project, tell us about it. Show some pics. You could start your own thread. An ESS speaker I think is great that I have heard but never owned and at this point in life, probably never will.
GabeD
Active Member
Happy to help! That's what is so great about this forum - lots of people contributing and sharing their stories. When trying to learn about some new piece of gear or concept, having the forum as a resource makes things so much easier. And even if what you are looking for isn't here, when you post something new, there are lots of cheerleaders here helping you figure things out.
GabeD
Active Member
Yes, indeed. I have listened to these quite a lot. In a nutshell, I absolutely love them. They have such an open clear sound (Sound as Clear as Light!) and the soundstage comes across like they are very, very big. That must be the Heil. The bottom end is incredible. I find myself doing a double take that there is so much bottom end coming from a pair of 10" woofers. The transmission line goes way, way down and is very solid. The stereo imaging is beautiful and I am able to very easily pick out instrument placement and "hear into" the recording space. I have read elsewhere that some find the imaging smeared with the Heils bouncing sound all over the place, but, that has not been my experience. Shelby Lynne's Just a Little Lovin' album is a fantastic example of being able to hear the recording space and that bass drum at the beginning of the opening track is something to behold going through the transmission line. Diana Krall's The Girl in the Other Room exemplifies the stereo imaging. The way the music is re produced is almost tactile as every scrape of the brushes and tap of the cymbals is so clearly heard.
These really do like power though. I find that at moderately loud volume they come alive. I'm driving them with a Carver M-400t which is 300wpc at 4ohms. I have dreams of finding another one and running them as monoblocks which would be over 500wpc. Not that they need that much, just that it would be interesting to have seemingly infinite headroom in the amps to push them along.
I love the visual aesthetic of the towers. Their presence in the room is commanding, yet their clean lines fit in with the decor. The red and black weave of the original fabric has a very cool retro look but I wanted to modernize them a bit to fit my listening space. I'm very happy with updating these to black fabric. The veneer is very thick and of good quality and is on my list of things to address to make these really top notch and finish out the restoration. I'll get there eventually.
That being said, I am very curious to try the Misco woofers. The Goldwoods sound great but I have the feeling that I'm missing something by not at least experimenting with a driver swap. Given Automojo's experiences with so many different woofers and consistently landing on the Misco's my curiosity is piqued. What I'm really curious about is if there will be changes in the midrange. Not that they sound bad, but I could see them having a bit more midrange and, if a woofer swap can do this, I'm willing to try. The Misco woofers also more closely match what was originally in the Towers with paper cones. I've read that the current form of ESS can rebuild the original round 10" woofers but I don't have the original woofers as they were long since lost to time.
I ended up with a lot of speakers from my dad and have listened to even more in his collection over the years. The speakers that have been ever present in my listening have been the JBL L series and their pro series cousins. Those are my benchmark for comparing anything else and I find them infinitely listenable. What really jumped out at me going between the ESS AMT1 Towers and the JBL L80t was that the titanium tweeters sounded "beamy" compared to the Heils. They are both bright, and I've found that I prefer the brighter West Coast sound, but the larger more spread out sound of the Heils really appeals to me. Would the ESS speakers fall into the West Coast category I wonder?
The huge Heil AMT tweeter sound, tower visual aesthetic and the family history these have all add up to make these keepers. My dad passed down the speaker disease. I have it. And I love it.
jcidave
Well-Known Member
Gabe: I nice detailed review. Glad you are so pleased with these. Yes. I would call them West Coast Sound. I think JBL was the big competitor. I think the Misco is a reasonably priced alternative to what you are using. If you want OEM, they come up for sale on ebay from time to time. ESS used several different types of 10 inch in these speakers. Some with ALNICO magnets and some with ceramic. The more common were the ALNICO. There is an active seller on Ebay who has alot of OEM ESS parts. He is 83fj. You can tag onto one of his auctions and see if he has these in inventory..Sometimes yes and sometimes no. There is another AK member refurbing a pair of AMT1's who recently posted that he sent his ALNICO speakers to ESS where they were re-magnetized and Reconed. This was pricy but he is very happy with the results. Certainly, a pair of the Misco's will be much lower cost than this option.
GabeD
Active Member
Thanks jcidave! I have reached out to 83fj. We'll see what he comes back with. What models were the standard circle 10" drivers used in? I see there are a couple on ebay now for the AMT4 and Tempest Lab Series 2 but don't know if they are applicable. Are the ALNICO and ceramic versions created equally?
I assume this is the post about ESS rebuilding the woofers you reference.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/ess-amt-1.910390/page-2#post-13903164
I wonder if they just use the same parts that are in the squircle they offer for sale just stuffed into the circle frame. For that kind of money though I'd be in the market for the Misco's. Unless of course I could find an original pair in decent shape. Re foaming them myself wouldn't be a problem.
jcidave
Well-Known Member
I am pretty certain they used the same 10s in the AMT 1, 1 tower,3,4. These old drivers had different construction than the current 10s.
No this is not the same thread and the AKer had them reconed by ESS not just refoamed. Ill see if I can find it.
jcidave
Well-Known Member
Hard to say say if the Misco’s would sound better then the Goldwood's.
With my AMT3’s, the 1040 SF’s- are much better then the ESS O. E. 10” woofers ( I run them totally sealed).
They have a deeper response, more detailed and can play louder with out compression.
They now sound like a big full range speaker with 2 10” woofers should sound.
And this is just my opinion, the 10” weren’t Ess best effort. Most modern 10” woofers would certainly out perform them.
The cast/stamped frame IMHO has little to do with the quality of the woofer, vs magnet motor strength, and preferably copper voice coils, Kapton formers etc.
They played around with 4 ohm woofer early on-settling on 8 ohm. Plus of course they are dealing with a box that is really too small for 2x10" active woofers.
The biggest issue is just plain a imbalance ... the mids and Heils ( mostly the Heil) are playing more then a few db higher (even with room gain) especially in the crossover region. It was a frustrating problem...and makes them sound bass shy as well.
Probably why many preferred the good old monitors or the pyramids-a more overall full and even response top to bottom-over the 3's. The mid was on the right track-just not the woofers.
The stock mid IMHO works well-and needs no addition padding like the Alpha 6a/etc.
With the 1040SF's they sound completely different then the stock AMT3's. Because now the woofers are in balance with the rest of the speaker-and it opens up a whole new level of detail top to bottom. The Heils aren't masking the lower mid's and midbass.
What also helped with this balance was to install better capacitors on the mid/Heil section. It eliminates some of the making brightness the Heil can have and really brings out the detail.
I had good luck with the Mundorf Evo oils, excellent and inexpensive. If your system leans toward bright sounding-or just better over all-mix the Mundrof Evo oil-with 2/3rd Jantzen Audio Superior Z caps (1/3 Mundorf+2/3 Jantzen). You hear things from your Great Heil you never heard before.
I get it-I was skeptical too-till I took the plunge.
A good tube preamp is also a plus!!
Just my opinion, if the Goldwoods sound as good as you describe in your Towers.. Just leave them and be happy.
And refoam when needed like the O. E.
Goldwood does make some good woofers with smooth and deep response-it's all about the specs anyway-not who makes the driver, and how well it's blends with a existing design.
Poly vs paper, I probably put too much opinion in my earlier post it’s really driver crossover dependent.
If I was itching to spend some money-and make a sound improvement-skip the woofers and upgrade the Heil cap.
Expensive, especially the Jantzens-but money well spent IMHO-a clearly audible improvement. ($100 per speaker).
Never heard a Tower, but the T-Line configuration I'm sure gets the bass to a on par with the Heils.
In the 3's sealing them up (greatly improving the transient response) , along with the 1040SF's was the key. And really fine tuning you damping material is critical-in part due to the smallish bass box.
The cool thing with your towers is the bass issue with the 3’s was solved with the T-line, and puts the woofer in a better position on the baffle relative to the Heil.
With my AMT3’s, the 1040 SF’s- are much better then the ESS O. E. 10” woofers ( I run them totally sealed).
They have a deeper response, more detailed and can play louder with out compression.
They now sound like a big full range speaker with 2 10” woofers should sound.
And this is just my opinion, the 10” weren’t Ess best effort. Most modern 10” woofers would certainly out perform them.
The cast/stamped frame IMHO has little to do with the quality of the woofer, vs magnet motor strength, and preferably copper voice coils, Kapton formers etc.
They played around with 4 ohm woofer early on-settling on 8 ohm. Plus of course they are dealing with a box that is really too small for 2x10" active woofers.
The biggest issue is just plain a imbalance ... the mids and Heils ( mostly the Heil) are playing more then a few db higher (even with room gain) especially in the crossover region. It was a frustrating problem...and makes them sound bass shy as well.
Probably why many preferred the good old monitors or the pyramids-a more overall full and even response top to bottom-over the 3's. The mid was on the right track-just not the woofers.
The stock mid IMHO works well-and needs no addition padding like the Alpha 6a/etc.
With the 1040SF's they sound completely different then the stock AMT3's. Because now the woofers are in balance with the rest of the speaker-and it opens up a whole new level of detail top to bottom. The Heils aren't masking the lower mid's and midbass.
What also helped with this balance was to install better capacitors on the mid/Heil section. It eliminates some of the making brightness the Heil can have and really brings out the detail.
I had good luck with the Mundorf Evo oils, excellent and inexpensive. If your system leans toward bright sounding-or just better over all-mix the Mundrof Evo oil-with 2/3rd Jantzen Audio Superior Z caps (1/3 Mundorf+2/3 Jantzen). You hear things from your Great Heil you never heard before.
I get it-I was skeptical too-till I took the plunge.
A good tube preamp is also a plus!!
Just my opinion, if the Goldwoods sound as good as you describe in your Towers.. Just leave them and be happy.
And refoam when needed like the O. E.
Goldwood does make some good woofers with smooth and deep response-it's all about the specs anyway-not who makes the driver, and how well it's blends with a existing design.
Poly vs paper, I probably put too much opinion in my earlier post it’s really driver crossover dependent.
If I was itching to spend some money-and make a sound improvement-skip the woofers and upgrade the Heil cap.
Expensive, especially the Jantzens-but money well spent IMHO-a clearly audible improvement. ($100 per speaker).
Never heard a Tower, but the T-Line configuration I'm sure gets the bass to a on par with the Heils.
In the 3's sealing them up (greatly improving the transient response) , along with the 1040SF's was the key. And really fine tuning you damping material is critical-in part due to the smallish bass box.
The cool thing with your towers is the bass issue with the 3’s was solved with the T-line, and puts the woofer in a better position on the baffle relative to the Heil.
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AMT1 used a 4 ohm 10". The AMT3's-with the exception of some early models used a 8 ohm version. The AMT5's used a round 8 ohm Alnico 12" woofer in a sealed cabinet.
Some of the Tempest used various versions as well.
If you have a copy of the AMT service manual it list's the part#'s
GabeD
Active Member
My main motivation for entertaining the idea of rolling woofers is to see if the midrange can be improved. Improved probably isn't the right word though. Shifted? Changed? Modified? Augmented? Not that it is bad, just that it is different from what I am used to. I'm not complaining either, these sound great the way that they are. I'm still trying to figure out if the sound is just inherent to this model, if my expectations of what a speaker should sound like are set differently from what these reproduce, or if I'm missing out on a different sound by using the Goldwoods. Or all of the above.
The bottom end is there for sure. The transmission line really works well and the Goldwoods go way down with authority. I'd say that the bottom end is definitely able to keep up with the top end. The bit in the middle is what I'm chasing. But am I chasing a ghost?
jcidave
Well-Known Member
Gabe, taking this further is up to you with respect to money spent on additional pairs of woofers for testing and your personal time to do it. I would check with any supplier to find out what their return policy is or if you can have the product on approval. If you buy OEM woofers from a private seller, you are probably stuck with them. Believe me they are a stamped frame woofer and look nothing like your goldwoods. ESS sells a new 10 inch woofer with a cast basket but its not round and has tabs that will require changes to the mounting hole in your cabinets. Maybe Ricky will let you have them on approval.
Ultimately, the total level of control will be to bypass the passive crossover and biamp the 2 drivers. With a separate electronic crossover and 2 amps, you will have far more control of crossover points and slopes.
Go to the Klipsch Audio Community website and see what those guys are doing with double stacked Heils and homemade woofer enclosures. All bi amped.