Big Bill
Summertime Rolls.....
Perhaps in your case, but I can hear the difference on my Empire with the Michell clamp.:yes:
explain what a clamp or weight does please
- Thread starter barkerd
- Start date
Perhaps in your case, but I can hear the difference on my Empire with the Michell clamp.:yes:
Reasonable, informed people intent on having a rational, intelligent discussion on a matter where differences of opinion can occur should be able to do so without resorting to the personal.
I have every confidence that those who do not hear a difference simply don't hear one. I am comfortable saying that I do in fact hear a difference particularly with the configuration I described in post #9.
I have every confidence that those who do not hear a difference simply don't hear one. I am comfortable saying that I do in fact hear a difference particularly with the configuration I described in post #9.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Beej, yes nice thread, I'm enjoying this one myself.
I think a lot of it boils down to the Turntable, and design. What works with a Sota with a Vacuum system, won't work for another, VPI Styled Clamp maybe won't work on a Thorens, etc. Platter design is one aspect.
But I am a firm believer, that if some form of clamp, or weight can somehow make a slightly warped-dished record lie flatter, that this will be a clear advantage.
The less trouble a Stylus has to go through to traverse through the groove, the better.
That Stylus riding up, and down vertically can usually be quite clearly heard through the speakers.
I can remember the old days, with the Shure V-15 on my now long gone Pioneer PL-51 Table, with that whoosing sound coming, and going everytime that cartridge bobbed up and down on a less than totally flat record. That overall sound became much more stable when I then switched to a VPI Table with the clamping system.
That all those little anomalies do add up. A little noise here, a little hum there, a dirty stylus here, a warped record there, they all were cumilative combining to make a slightly less than stellar sound.
I think a lot of it boils down to the Turntable, and design. What works with a Sota with a Vacuum system, won't work for another, VPI Styled Clamp maybe won't work on a Thorens, etc. Platter design is one aspect.
But I am a firm believer, that if some form of clamp, or weight can somehow make a slightly warped-dished record lie flatter, that this will be a clear advantage.
The less trouble a Stylus has to go through to traverse through the groove, the better.
That Stylus riding up, and down vertically can usually be quite clearly heard through the speakers.
I can remember the old days, with the Shure V-15 on my now long gone Pioneer PL-51 Table, with that whoosing sound coming, and going everytime that cartridge bobbed up and down on a less than totally flat record. That overall sound became much more stable when I then switched to a VPI Table with the clamping system.
That all those little anomalies do add up. A little noise here, a little hum there, a dirty stylus here, a warped record there, they all were cumilative combining to make a slightly less than stellar sound.
dr*audio
Fish fingers and custard!
Another thing that happens when you play a record, because of Newton's law of action and reaction, as the grooves in the record cause the stylus to vibrate, some vibration in the record itself occurs. Clamping the record to the platter adds mass and damps the vibrations. The platter has to have sufficient mass and the platter mat has to be absorptive. It may be that with a mat that is sufficiently absorptive, it would compensate for a lighter platter. I have heard and demonstrated the difference to others. What I hear, without the clamp, is distortion. Those I demonstrated it to have always said, "wow!"
ambient
Super Member
I definitely hear the cyclical 'wooshing' you describe..pretty annoying. Anyone have any recommendations for a weight to use with a Thorens 160?
melofelo
Addicted Member
i use a pickering clamp sometimes..mostly with thinner pressings or where there is a gentle warp in the vinyl which reduces its contact surface to the platter mat...
with the clamp in place..i generally notice improvements in sound quality especially with music that has alot of heavy bass percussion or sustained low frequency notes...
other things like the decay of struck instruments when recorded in an acoustic space and the leading edge of high frequency notes all appear to benefit too..
a clamp or weight is a one time investment and can yield improvements depending on what type of records you use it with and what kind of platter mat and platter your rig has..
some japanese direct drive turntables used to feature platter mats with 'relief' patterns on both side of the mat..sometimes radial or concentric lines from the centre to the outer mat..
i assume this was more than a cosmetic design...and perhaps intended to reduce the mass of the mat itself..
but those 'relief' patterns also minimise contact with the record they support.. especially thinner records with a gentle warp... i find a clamp especially useful with this kind of platter mat..as it doesn't add too much mass yet provides a better mating of the record with the support surface underneath..
with the clamp in place..i generally notice improvements in sound quality especially with music that has alot of heavy bass percussion or sustained low frequency notes...
other things like the decay of struck instruments when recorded in an acoustic space and the leading edge of high frequency notes all appear to benefit too..
a clamp or weight is a one time investment and can yield improvements depending on what type of records you use it with and what kind of platter mat and platter your rig has..
some japanese direct drive turntables used to feature platter mats with 'relief' patterns on both side of the mat..sometimes radial or concentric lines from the centre to the outer mat..
i assume this was more than a cosmetic design...and perhaps intended to reduce the mass of the mat itself..
but those 'relief' patterns also minimise contact with the record they support.. especially thinner records with a gentle warp... i find a clamp especially useful with this kind of platter mat..as it doesn't add too much mass yet provides a better mating of the record with the support surface underneath..
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bluesky
Lunatic Member
I use a Sansui SR-838 TT and I too am also worried about the stresses on the motor and bearing. I'd really like to use one, never have, but I do not want to take the chance to screw something up, burn something up, overheat something, with my 30 year old table. :tears:
So...guess I will just keep things as they are. I do have a thick rubber type mat on the table that origionally came with the table, good enough. I figure, if Sansui wanted you to use a clamp they would of supplied it or sold it as an accessory, which they didn't.
Seems like the LPs really lock onto that thick rubber type mat, no doubt about that. The mats hold the LPs tight. Also the LPs do fit on the spindle snug, so I'm just leaving things alone. Just don't want to mess up my 'primo' TT.
So...guess I will just keep things as they are. I do have a thick rubber type mat on the table that origionally came with the table, good enough. I figure, if Sansui wanted you to use a clamp they would of supplied it or sold it as an accessory, which they didn't.
Seems like the LPs really lock onto that thick rubber type mat, no doubt about that. The mats hold the LPs tight. Also the LPs do fit on the spindle snug, so I'm just leaving things alone. Just don't want to mess up my 'primo' TT.
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jgordon
Super Member
This thread, and clamps in general, are interesting. With my suspended Linn, I think clamps/weights are out for the most part, so it's more academic interest on my part.
The funny thing is, I was using the felt mat, and when I went to five small cork dots, i noticed a huge improvement in sound quality. Now arguably I went exactly the opposite direction from clamping - by minimizing the coupling of the disc and the platter, I'm allowing the record to vibrate as much as possible, given our old friend Newton. But the sound is better, clearer, and more defined than with the felt mat. Others report exactly the same improvement from going the clamp, more mass, more coupling route.
Is it the table? Is it a situation with great results for either a completely uncoupled, or completely coupled disc, with mud in the middle?
I dunno.
The funny thing is, I was using the felt mat, and when I went to five small cork dots, i noticed a huge improvement in sound quality. Now arguably I went exactly the opposite direction from clamping - by minimizing the coupling of the disc and the platter, I'm allowing the record to vibrate as much as possible, given our old friend Newton. But the sound is better, clearer, and more defined than with the felt mat. Others report exactly the same improvement from going the clamp, more mass, more coupling route.
Is it the table? Is it a situation with great results for either a completely uncoupled, or completely coupled disc, with mud in the middle?
I dunno.
Big Bill
Summertime Rolls.....
This is the question I'd like to have the answer to. Sort of a "unifying theory" if you will.
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Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
The idea of a Herbie's mat is supposed to be to decouple the record, rather than couple.
http://www.herbiesaudiolab.net/ttmat.htm
He specifically mentions supsended tables like the LP12.
http://www.herbiesaudiolab.net/ttmat.htm
He specifically mentions supsended tables like the LP12.
marc mc
Super Member
Actually there is nothing unique about the Linn in that respect. I introduced the cork pod idea here and suggested it as a half measure for people with tables that need the platter to retain mass and yet want to try platterless, which is a full measure. The point is you should use a clamp with the cork pods or you will get some chatter from the record, or use more pods. I understand that some claimed to hear differences with different numbers of pods. I won't get into that.
The reason Linn has always used felt and no clamp is Ivor's ego. Any real philosopy change like that would be an admission of guilt. He blabbed so loud about so much in the early days he was never able to go back and his followers lined up behind him.
BTW the irony for me is I have made and bought clamps for 25 years and I in fact rarely use them on anything but my VPI which is mandatory.
marc mc
dr*audio
Fish fingers and custard!
If you use a weight with a Thorens table you have to adjust the suspension to compensate for the added weight, which I have done with my TD-126 and TD-145. I make my own weights from flywheels from old tape decks and old receivers (the tuning flywheel.) I drill the center out to the correct size, and grind down one side so it's flush, if necessary.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
It seems there are a great many philosophies. McIntosh gives you a 12-pound acrylic platter to resist resonance, but then shows it with a mat and no clamp.
bebopdeluxe
Well-Known Member
Like bluesky, I have a Sansui SR-838...which did not come with a record clamp (question - did ANY TT come with a record clamp 30 years ago?)...I have ordered a JA Michel clamp to use with the SR-838...very little weight, and I feel reasonably comfortable that it will not put too much stress on the motor - although I probably will selectively use the clamp only on those records that have the need for flattening.
miner
Super Member
I use a Michell clamp with my Rega P7 sometimes. On a warped LP with concave side up I can see how a clamp would be beneficial. What I don't understand is how it could be a benefit with the convex side up (U). In this case a ring clamp/weight would be best but they can't be used on all tables.
marc mc
Super Member
Yes, Oracle, Mitchell, Sota, Goldmund, Maplenoll, Micro Seiki, VPI and others all started with clamps. Even a few of the light and middleweights did and clamps of every price point were sold at audio stores. It is not some new thing! The stores I went to all sold about 5 different kinds and would let you borrow them to see what you liked. I had several made at machine shops about 20 years ago when my platterless interest was at its height. I was replacing platter mass and using machined metal for that weight. They look like those TT weights you see everywhere.
The simple fact is vinyl will react to what ever is in contact with it and that contact will cause changes. Those changes will interact with every other part of the "system" and turntables must be viewed as a system and not seperate parts.
BTW I know next to nothing about the mid and low fi tables from Japan. We never took them serious and saw them as the enemy to vinyl playback in those days. The P3, sytemdek, Revolver, Oak and Linn Axis was as low as the dealers I went to carried or any of us owned ( I still have one of my P3's from those days). The plastic stuff everyone is going ape $hit over today were sold as part of a stereo package. They kill music (except Technics) and do everything wrong except speed. They were sold at Junk fi stores with names like MAXX and MEGA electronics. They were the Best Buys of the day only worse and usually stayed in buisness until the collectors found them again. We saw those stores as the cancer of our hobby. Those tables all still work because the mainstream customers that bought them put nic naks on them and only played Michael Jacksons Thriller a couple times a year. IMO putting a clamp on one is like sticking bubble gum in a cracked dam.
marc mc
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poppachubby
Boo Yaka! Boo Yaka!
A little bit of a generality, no? You say you've never owned one...what's that in your sig?
jgordon
Super Member
I'm not quite following this. My understanding (over and above "It sounds better") was that the pods approximate a platterless design. If you then add more pods, and a clamp on top of them, you are in effect coupling the disc to the platter, albeit with a slightly different vibration-dampening medium between them (felt vs. cork). How would this be different than the original felt mat with a clamp? Or any other large-contact mat?
And I had thought suspended tables in general don't take to clamps?
And I had thought suspended tables in general don't take to clamps?