explain what a clamp or weight does please

[JohnVF]

Yes, Oracle, Mitchell, Sota, Goldmund, Maplenoll, Micro Seiki, VPI and others all started with clamps. Even a few of the light and middleweights did and clamps of every price point were sold at audio stores. It is not some new thing! The stores I went to all sold about 5 different kinds and would let you borrow them to see what you liked. I had several made at machine shops about 20 years ago when my platterless interest was at its height. I was replacing platter mass and using machined metal for that weight. They look like those TT weights you see everywhere.


The simple fact is vinyl will react to what ever is in contact with it and that contact will cause changes. Those changes will interact with every other part of the "system" and turntables must be viewed as a system and not seperate parts.

BTW I know next to nothing about the mid and low fi tables from Japan. We never took them serious and saw them as the enemy to vinyl playback in those days. The P3, sytemdek, Revolver, Oak and Linn Axis was as low as the dealers I went to carried or any of us owned ( I still have one of my P3's from those days). The plastic stuff everyone is going ape $hit over today were sold as part of a stereo package. They kill music (except Technics) and do everything wrong except speed. They were sold at Junk fi stores with names like MAXX and MEGA electronics. They were the Best Buys of the day only worse and usually stayed in buisness until the collectors found them again. We saw those stores as the cancer of our hobby. Those tables all still work because the mainstream customers that bought them put nic naks on them and only played Michael Jacksons Thriller a couple times a year. IMO putting a clamp on one is like sticking bubble gum in a cracked dam.


marc mc

I just parted out my Linn Axis to grab the Basik arm for my Sony 2251 Japanese DD. They weren't ALL terrible. I actually like the 2251 slightly better than my Technics 1200, though both are a long way down from the VPI (and both are a LOT better than my Pioneer PL-570 which somehow always manages to sound lifeless).

I have used a clamp with the Sony to good effect. It has a decently weighty platter and a fairly stiff suspension that isn't thrown off by it. I also used one with my Systemdek but the difference wasn't as noticeable on it (and it had developed other issues with it's motor that might surely have negated the positives of coupling the record to the table). What I notice about the sound in the non-VPI tables is a simple 'tightening up' of the soundstage and a slightly more defined bass. It's not a revelation. A lot of people scoff at things that don't make a night and day difference, but it's the simple adding-up of all these little things that leads to the noticeable difference in overall sound.

 

[marc mc]

I'm not quite following this. My understanding (over and above "It sounds better") was that the pods approximate a platterless design. If you then add more pods, and a clamp on top of them, you are in effect coupling the disc to the platter, albeit with a slightly different vibration-dampening medium between them (felt vs. cork). How would this be different than the original felt mat with a clamp? Or any other large-contact mat?

And I had thought suspended tables in general don't take to clamps?

They do approxamate a platterless design. But a well excecuted platterless design will cause the record to become very rigid by a ring and clamp at its centre. A platterless design without a centre stabilizer or weight won't work, at least I could never get it to. The record is chattery. What more pods will do is lessen this the effect while still giving the advnatages of Platterless.

I have used clamps on my PF800, TD125 and now have several for my Heybrook TT2 all are suspended. I found they worked on all of them but I'm just to lazy. I only use one on my VPI MK-IV with the suspension defeated.

marc mc

 

[marc mc]

A little bit of a generality, no? You say you've never owned one...what's that in your sig?

Never owned one but have heard lots. Cripes every house party I ever attended had one. Not to mention the 50 I bought at junk stores and tested before giving away to kids. Everyone I heard made nothing but noise. And yes the problem was the plastic parts, no mass platters and the arms. I understand that guys are getting these replinthed and putting great arms on them to good effect. But I'm talking about the plastic crap with cheap arms that make more noise than a kindergarten class. My comments were relating to the fact that I do not feel that it is worth putting a bunch of time and effort into modding a very weak product when to just grab a stock Rega will put you miles further down the road. So as for tweaking out those mass produced tables from the 80's I have no experience and have zero interest in getting any.

My point was no one back when tt's ruled considered them to be pursued. And I did specify mid and low fi japanese. Back then it was all out of the UK except for a couple from the States and Oracle here in Canada. And a very nice table called The Source.

marc mc

 

[sloober]

I tend to think about it like writing on paper. Ever have a cluttered desk and try to write on paper that is not supported by the desk? Paper moves as you try to write, and the penmanship suffers. With a record I think it works much the same. I have had some luck "helping" a slightly warped record, but can't fix them all. Just my opinion. John

 

[Dr Tinear]

This thread, and clamps in general, are interesting. With my suspended Linn, I think clamps/weights are out for the most part, so it's more academic interest on my part. ...

KAB used to sell the PIG record clamp, a lightweight rubber gizmo that came standard with Revolver turntables. It holds the record to the platter by gripping the spindle. I used it with my old AR turntable, which has a suspension similar to the Linn's, and never had any problems with the suspension bottoming. It did a nice job of cleaning up the sound, too. I still use it with my belt-drive Technics turntable, where it provides much the same sonic improvement that it did on the AR.

Now that the PIG is out of production, KAB offers a $38 lightweight clamp with a built-in spirit level. It weighs only 2 ounces, so it should be usable on suspended-subchassis turntables. I haven't tried it, but would expect it to work at least as well as the PIG did.

 

[marc mc]

KAB used to sell the PIG record clamp, a lightweight rubber gizmo that came standard with Revolver turntables. It holds the record to the platter by gripping the spindle. I used it with my old AR turntable, which has a suspension similar to the Linn's, and never had any problems with the suspension bottoming. It did a nice job of cleaning up the sound, too. I still use it with my belt-drive Technics turntable, where it provides much the same sonic improvement that it did on the AR.

Now that the PIG is out of production, KAB offers a $38 lightweight clamp with a built-in spirit level. It weighs only 2 ounces, so it should be usable on suspended-subchassis turntables. I haven't tried it, but would expect it to work at least as well as the PIG did.

The pig is brilliant. I have made several little clamps like it and they all work great. The revolver is a musical table and I have always liked it. I see them from time to time for $200. Man that is hard to beat.

marc mc

marc mc

 

[Pio1980]

I used a tape reel clamp for a while, it works if one is careful not to lift the record edge with too much pressure.

 

[Pio1980]

The (non-resonant) plastics laden entry level TT's of the 70's and 80s were miles ahead of the rumble-y rim-ringing groove-grinding changers in the consoles and portables that those of us at a certain age remember as our first exposure to "record players". Of course one could do better, one always can with more research and outlay.

My foray into vacuum platters taught me the importance of mechanical record "grounding" and damping. I do not understand approaches that turn the record into a microphone diaphragm for the cartridge and system to utilize as a reverb loop. How could that not change the sound by adding effects not in the recording?
I got away from vacuum platters when the pre-play ritual morphed into an elaborate ceremony and elusive dust particles regardless became embedded into the records. I knew what the system could retrieve and yet envied those who could simply disregard the BS and enjoy playing a favorite recording with considerably less preparation.

 

[barkerd]

thanks for the feedback guys : been away for a few days : and just got a chance to check this thread ......not surprised at all at how some take any thread to try and self-aggrandize at others' expenses..... with thinly veiled personal criticisms ... but if that is what some want their reputation to be I guess I can't have much effect on it ....... I guess it leads me back to my original thread post though : are there any studies or measurements that have been done that prove or disprove any of the opinions (either way) on platter clamps ? ......

 

[Big Bill]

I guess it leads me back to my original thread post though : are there any studies or measurements that have been done that prove or disprove any of the opinions (either way) on platter clamps ? ......

You didn't ask for the above in your original thread post.

 

[barkerd]

literally yes : but my point was : what do they do? ....opinions are great ...but evidence is even better

 

[Pio1980]

I'd be somewhat surprized if someone seriously involved with mats, vacuum clamping platters, and/or clamping arrangements hasn't done impulse, freq sweeps, and feedback loop testing somewhere. The design goal would/should seem to be primarily resonance/feedback loop damping and anti-reactive mass loading of the record itself. Almost any change of these factors is likely to make a subjective difference somehow. "Different" is easy, "better" not so much.

 

[JohnVF]

literally yes : but my point was : what do they do? ....opinions are great ...but evidence is even better

It's different for every turntable depending on the design, so what good would some sort of lab testing do if you have a different tuntable? In my own system, the clamp is a part of the design philosphy of my turntable. The record becomes integral with the 20+ lb platter allowing the stylus to track the undulations of the groove instead of the movement of the record itself...and it seems to me that a basic understanding of physics would suggest that's a good thing as long as the bearing is good and the motor vibration is reasonably isolated away from it. For another turntable, as many have pointed out in this thread, it may not be a good thing as clamping the record to the platter is not a part of the design and in fact, doing so may hurt the sound instead of helping it. So what many of us are left with is simply trying it out and making a subjective call. Until there's a study measuring all the differnt types of clamps on all the different types of turntables, there's not much else to turn to, unless you perform the measurements yourself.

 

[gusten]

It's different for every turntable depending on the design, so what good would some sort of lab testing do if you have a different tuntable? In my own system, the clamp is a part of the design philosphy of my turntable. The record becomes integral with the 20+ lb platter allowing the stylus to track the undulations of the groove instead of the movement of the record itself...and it seems to me that a basic understanding of physics would suggest that's a good thing as long as the bearing is good and the motor vibration is reasonably isolated away from it. For another turntable, as many have pointed out in this thread, it may not be a good thing as clamping the record to the platter is not a part of the design and in fact, doing so may hurt the sound instead of helping it. So what many of us are left with is simply trying it out and making a subjective call. Until there's a study measuring all the differnt types of clamps on all the different types of turntables, there's not much else to turn to, unless you perform the measurements yourself.

Exactly, good post. What one can say will happen similarly with all designs, if clamping a record so it becomes much flatter, is that records will become easier playable. When recording different state of warps, looking at frequency plots, one can see that low frequency amplitudes (up to around 12HZ) are corrolated to warp amplitude and warp frequency.
That means, variation in VTF and distorsion are to a quite large extent depending on the former.
It is also so that exciting resonance frequency is more difficult without warps.
If clamping a record will induce some rumble or other problems, can of course also be seen in a plot, but that is only valid for that particular tt design.
gusten

 

[barkerd]

different tables : different results : YES ....but to this point I have yet to see any scientific data for ANY table ....... flat records track better : yes : but with a good pressing to begin with I dont know how much improvement would be had (I can see a benefit if you had an irreplaceable warped record that HAD to be played) ....and stylus' are designed to deal with some non-concentricity as well as y axis change.
I understand basic physics , in fact I teach Science : but I am uncomfortable when Science is hinted at , yet there is no evidence. I am not being pig headed , I just want to see SOME evidence that a weight/clamp in some application actually creates a measureable difference

 

[gusten]

different tables : different results : YES ....but to this point I have yet to see any scientific data for ANY table ....... flat records track better : yes : but with a good pressing to begin with I dont know how much improvement would be had (I can see a benefit if you had an irreplaceable warped record that HAD to be played) ....and stylus' are designed to deal with some non-concentricity as well as y axis change.
I understand basic physics , in fact I teach Science : but I am uncomfortable when Science is hinted at , yet there is know evidence. I am not being pig headed , I just want to see SOME evidence that a weight/clamp in some application actually creates a measureable difference

Do some recording of warps in different state with Your actual tt, with and without clamping. Then You will learn how it affects Your particular setup.
If You don´t have any software, there are free ones easily obtainable.
gusten

 

[marc mc]

but I am uncomfortable when Science is hinted at , yet there is no evidence. I am not being pig headed , I just want to see SOME evidence that a weight/clamp in some application actually creates a measureable difference

Here is my non scientific 6 step test method that I have used many different times. I admit it is only measureable by your ears though.

1) Go to a machine shop. Walk or drive.

2) Talk nice to the guy. (dont' be a dick)

3) Look in their junk metal bin for a useful piece of metal

4) Ask them to drill a hole while offering to go get them coffees.

5) Thank them!!

6) Go home and try it on your Dual TT. If you like it keep it and if not, use for a paper weight.

BTW to answer your question I can clearly remember back in the day all the big table makers used to have test graphs and specs for their tables with clamps or vacuum hold downs they believed in. This is however vinyls victory lap and people are buying these items unseen and untried so why would they bother? Beside the variations and applications are now endless and unless they had your table and cart combo for the tests the results would be meaningless. In every case they will either do nothing, make it better, or make it worse. The only thing you need is your ears to decide.

marc mc

 

[barkerd]

would a clamp overcome the acoustic limitations of a garage set up ? Exactly.

 

[JohnVF]

I simply don't understand people's need to scientifically verify such a simple thing as listening to music. It sounds better or it doesn't. If you mess up and believe you hear something that isn't there...well, the world still turns, and so does your record.

So..I guess I'm the on that's pig headed! Different strokes for different folks.

 

[JohnVF]

would a clamp overcome the acoustic limitations of a garage set up ? Exactly.

At that point, why would you worry about ultimate fidelity? That's not the point of that system. We're talking very small differences in sound for the most part.