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Gainclone amps???

Grainger49 said:
It replaced my modded ST-70. Then I got some Triangle speakers and Bottlehead Paramour power amps. I prefer the Paramours, although the bass was deeper and better defined on the GC.
Glad to hear that I am not just hearing this amp through "Rose Colored Glasses". I think it's a real strong performer. I tried several speaker combo's last night and it handled everything with much finesse, including the Rectilliner III Tall Boys, which can be somewhat power hungry....
BTW,
Your sig line says it all....:thmbsp:
 
cableguy said:
. . . I think it's a real strong performer. I tried several speaker combo's last night and it handled everything with much finesse, including the Rectilliner III Tall Boys, which can be somewhat power hungry....
BTW,
Your sig line says it all....:thmbsp:

When I built the GC I was playing Fuselier 3.8Ds. They are not very efficient (I know that is the wrong word, now, but it is the word I used most of my life). If I had to guess they are some where in the mid 80dBW range.

The GC rocked with those speakers. And they want all the power they can get. I have used SAE, Eagle, Krell, ST-70, and the GC on them. Quite honestly, the GC sounded better than the Krell KSA-250-S!
 
The one thing that seems to be common on all varieties of integrated chips is that they all appear to sound great. The LM1875/LM3886 are the most common but others based on the TDA7294 or OPA541 also appear to be kick-ass. One of the theories espoused is the closeness of components within the chip itself. Short signal paths, controlled values, and uniform heat of all parts within it may account for this. They certainly are wonderful little devices in any case.
 
47 Labs built the Gaincard ($4250 with dual power supplies) which had a very short signal path. Gain Clones are clones of this design. (I built mine for a small fraction of the cost of a Gaincard) The original was small and flimsy to the point that speaker cables would raise it off whatever it sat on. The power supply/supplies was/were outboard.

But, surprisingly, the company attributed the purity of sound to the short and simple signal path. That is also one of the attributes of the Bottlehead equipment, and I have a bit of that too.
 
Grainger49 said:
47 Labs built the Gaincard ($4250 with dual power supplies) which had a very short signal path. Gain Clones are clones of this design. (I built mine for a small fraction of the cost of a Gaincard) The original was small and flimsy to the point that speaker cables would raise it off whatever it sat on. The power supply/supplies was/were outboard.

But, surprisingly, the company attributed the purity of sound to the short and simple signal path. That is also one of the attributes of the Bottlehead equipment, and I have a bit of that too.

Yeah, well... I'd be more inclined to believe Siegfried Linkwitz. He talks about the LM3886 here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/electronics.htm

Oh, and these Nat Semi chip amps aren't particularly simple inside. :)

BTW, outboard power supplies are usually a bad idea because they increase the impedance the power supply presents to the circuit.
 
Sounds real nice to me

cableguy said:
Just a little dose of reality. My Mac MC250 does sound better than the chip amp. :D


.... Mac snob!:butt2:

I enjoyed listening to that last night. makes me wonder how easy those things are to build? By the way Bill, you ever get tired of that, lemme know...:deal:
 
stuartk said:
Yeah, well... I'd be more inclined to believe Siegfried Linkwitz. He talks about the LM3886 here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/electronics.htm

Oh, and these Nat Semi chip amps aren't particularly simple inside. :)

BTW, outboard power supplies are usually a bad idea because they increase the impedance the power supply presents to the circuit.


I really perked up on one quote from the Linkwitz site:

"The loudspeaker is by far the weakest link in the reproduction chain. Unless you have really poorly designed associated equipment you cannot get significant improvement in accuracy by going to very expensive equipment. Marketing departments like to tell you otherwise. Hearing a change is not an indication of greater accuracy. Some products are designed to make an audible change so the customer will notice it. Other products rely on the power of suggestion which works the better, the higher the price tag. "

I've been trying to express that opinion for years here, but get little agreement or belief :scratch2:

Lefty
 
I've got a nice 48v 3A center tapped transformer sitting on my workbench doing nothing at the moment... that will make, after the rectifier and filter caps, +34 v/0/-34v.

Is that too high for the gainclones?
 
Not at all, I think mine uses more than that on its power supplies (dual mono). I think the maximum is over 60V. Check on Brian's site, it is Chipamp.com.

There is the manufacturer's data sheet, or a link there, IIRC.
 
Lefty said:
I really perked up on one quote from the Linkwitz site:

"The loudspeaker is by far the weakest link in the reproduction chain. Unless you have really poorly designed associated equipment you cannot get significant improvement in accuracy by going to very expensive equipment. Marketing departments like to tell you otherwise. Hearing a change is not an indication of greater accuracy. Some products are designed to make an audible change so the customer will notice it. Other products rely on the power of suggestion which works the better, the higher the price tag. "

I've been trying to express that opinion for years here, but get little agreement or belief :scratch2:

Lefty

I tend to agree with him on that point. I feel that speakers, recordings, and listening room are most important.

I've even read some opinions that state that the recordings are the most important, but I figure you often can't do much about them, so I don't know if it's worth worrying about them. Is a not so great recording of a fantastic musical performance better or worse than a perfect recording of an average performance?

I normally recommend that people try to get really good speakers and not worry so much about the other parts of their system. I feel you can easily get a, let's say, 50 percent improvement in speakers by carefully shopping - without spending obscene amounts of money.

With electronics, I think you're looking at smaller improvements. Maybe 10 percent or something. It's pretty easy to get decent electronics and harder to improve up them.

Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic feels the same way Linkwitz does. He basically says that most electronics are good enough and that you should spend you money on speakers. He goes further and says that, using a double-blind testing method, you can't tell the difference between most electronics. (Although, as Linkwitz mentions, I'm sure there is gear that does things slightly wrong just so it stands out.)

I've seen amplifiers that have more gain than normal. That's going to tend to get you to listen at higher levels when you're first auditioning them. Higher levels often sound "better."

Many moving coil cartridges have rising response in the treble, and that's going to stand out.

Some speakers bump up the mid-bass to give that "impact" or maybe to cover the fact they have no low bass. :)

Polk speakers were known to have a bumped-up treble so that they stood out in the showroom against other brands of speakers.

I was reading some of what Richard Hardesty (The Audio Perfectionist) has on his web site for free, and he claims that some phono preamps play with the RIAA curve so that they sound different than other preamps. (I'm not sold on some of what he claims, but I suspect he's right on this one.)

There were some speakers called the Waveform Research Mach 17s. They were partly designed by Paul Barton (PSB) and conformed to the results of the research done by Floyd Toole and others at the Canadian NRC. (Note that Linkwitz follows these same precepts and the result is speakers like his Orions.)

I had heard of them a number of years ago and the mags like Stereophile and TAS didn't seem to think much of them. Yet, they were demonstrably superior in many ways. (Flat frequency response, good dispersion and power response, low distortion, and huge output levels.)

I just recently read a bunch of back issues of The Audio Critic because he put them up for free download. Aczel also says just about the exact same thing about the Mach 17s.

As for electronics, I do prefer a certain brand, partly because I know they're built like tanks and will last many years. I feel they sound better too, but I recognize that may be hard to prove.

Part of what makes this hobby interesting is that different people come up with different ways of doing things and have different likes and dislikes. But that's also what makes this hobby frustrating. :)
 
Grainger49 said:
Not at all, I think mine uses more than that on its power supplies (dual mono). I think the maximum is over 60V. Check on Brian's site, it is Chipamp.com.

There is the manufacturer's data sheet, or a link there, IIRC.

I was just looking at the spec sheet from Nat Semi for the LM3886 and they state the max supply voltage is +/- 84 V (with a signal at the input), but that's more or less just to tell you what won't blow it up if you're using an unregulated supply and the line voltage spikes.

When you start looking at the sheet, they're really recommending +/- 28 V for the supply rails and that gets you into 0.1% THD+N at 38W into 8 ohms.

It's also evidently possible to bridge these and get more power. (Linkwitz does that for the woofer in the Plutos.)

If I were looking for more power than that, I think I'd look into Greg Ball's Simple Killer Amp. It's inexpensive, not really any more difficult than a chip amp, and you can easily get 150 W or 300 W out of them. They're very efficient about power supplies too. You can get 150 W into 8 ohms out of a +/- 55 V supply.

The chip amps are really neat, and I'm sure they sound good, but if I'm going to go to the effort of building something, I want to get something that will push enough power to handle anything I'd throw at it. :)
 
As for electronics, I do prefer a certain brand, partly because I know they're built like tanks and will last many years. I feel they sound better too, but I recognize that may be hard to prove.

That is the point of this particular discussion.......
I tend to agree with you regarding speakers, but I am somewhat of a speaker freak. I also believe that certain (well many actually, I'm kind of an amp head too) amps can and will provide better sonic performance. At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preferences, and the way we "individually" process all of these "vibrations" consisting of sub-atomic energy that we call music. Wow, that is so Zen.......:D
 
This transformer came from a very old Gibson guitar amp my brother finally scrapped, but the transformer is near new. It is actually the 48v ct 3 A one from Parts Express. Well, it seems like this should be fine, not pushing the chip amp at all, but at the same time, should deliver plenty of power. Should be good for about 40-50 w/ch into 8 ohms.
 
Paul C said:
This transformer came from a very old Gibson guitar amp my brother finally scrapped, but the transformer is near new. It is actually the 48v ct 3 A one from Parts Express. Well, it seems like this should be fine, not pushing the chip amp at all, but at the same time, should deliver plenty of power. Should be good for about 40-50 w/ch into 8 ohms.

That sounds about right. Give it a try. I really enjoyed mine.

One warning, if you are as crazy as I am, and put in some Black Gates they take a week of break in, 24/7.
 
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