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Gainclone vs Vintage

savatage1973 said:
AMEN!!! I am sitting here listening to 4 Krell KMA 160 monoblocs that you can probably arc weld with their outputs. They weigh a ton (actually about 100 lbs each), and can drive a cement block. Downside--each amp draws ~8A at idle (since they run pure Class A) and can heat a room in a pinch. In the owner's manual Krell rates them at 160w into an 8 ohm load, but 1280w into a 1 ohm load, and you can adjust the protection circuit to run lower than 1 ohm. Try that with some POS chip amp.
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I appreciate that you've got some nice Krell amps, but your argument is illogical. It's equivalent to saying, "I'm driving an M1 Abrams tank here with a 120mm smoothbore gun that can shoot down a brick wall. Try that with some POS bicycle."

Not the same thing.

If your goal is just to get across town rather than win a war, the bicycle might be a better choice. Chip amps make for great bedroom/kitchen/don't-want-a-full-rig-here systems.
 
Here are comments on the SMSL SA-60 ( TPA3116 ) from another forum comparing it to some nice amps.

"Hi Everyone,

I've been curious about Tripath and similar amps for a long time - hard to believe they are as good as some claim for $20-60 bucks.

In short - best audio purchase in years - and I buy a ton of stuff.

I ended up keeping the SMSL SA-60 using the new TI TPA3116 chip. I compared this to a few tripath/2020 amps in an Acuhorn ($5K) single driver system fed by a PS Audio DS DAC ($6K). This one is clearly better in every way than the older tripath ones. I also compared it to my beloved Pass Labs XA 30.5 amp, which costs about 100x. It get's surprising close in most ways. The SMSL isn't quite as dynamic, but is just as pure and tube-like. I use it daily - no warm-up time and runs cool. I still like some of my other amps better, but this is better than anything I've heard for less than $2,500. Really - can't believe it.

Compared to a couple tube amps - 845 and a Jadis KT90, it is still very close. Not quite as warm in the midrange and the imaging isn't quite as perfect - but really good and better than some cheap tube amps like Yaqin I've owned in the past.

These speakers are 98db efficient, so they don't need more than a few watts - so don't really need the extra power over Tripath - but it does have much stronger dynamics.

I wish there was a version without volume control or Loudness feature - or at least an easy way to defeat each completely. Still sounds great - but I imagine it could be even better without those in the signal path. Also - the RCA connectors are too close together - I can't use my typical Cardas interconnects. Same with the speaker posts - can only use fairly small wires - Wireworld Eclipse didn't come close to fitting. But these issues won't matter to most buyers - can't ask for more for $60 bucks.

Do note that these only work well for me with very easy to drive speakers (8 Ohm, 98db, no dips). If using with low efficiency speakers these little amps aren't nearly as good - just don't have the current for low impedance."

This guy says the TPA3116 is better than anything he's heard for under $2,500. Too bad he was using a $7 laptop power brick rather than a linear regulated power supply or his praise might have been even higher. :)
 
And by the way there's a reason the TPA3116 thread here on AK is going strong after almost 3 years with 5,300 posts and 738,000 views.
 
How is this "gainclone" technology different from what you might see typically in a consumer-grade BPC unit built in the past 20 years?
.
 
You don't see the word "gainclone" used so much anymore as it implies the use of the LM

series chip which has been around awhile.

If you follow diyaudio the all inclusive threads use the term "Chip Amp".

Last week a company in India ( Allo ) sent me their new Volt+ chip amp to test. It uses the

TPA3118 chip and has all the upgraded brand name components, bootstrap snubbers, anti-

pop circuit and capacity multiplier. Haven't placed it in a case yet but the naked amp's SQ is

jaw dropping.

PA020019_1.jpg
 
I know that there are many advances in audio, and they can make some pretty good music for what they are, you can not tell me they approach the sound quality of even a discrete 1975 receiver. All the best components in the world are not going to help it, it just doesn't have the heart!
 
Freddymac2 said:
I know that there are many advances in audio, and they can make some pretty good music for what they are, you can not tell me they approach the sound quality of even a discrete 1975 receiver. All the best components in the world are not going to help it, it just doesn't have the heart!
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The proof is in the pudding but only if you try the pudding.

Any of the $10 TPA chip amps trump my 1975 Marantz 1150 in every way except for power.
 
If that is the case you are using the wrong equipment. Over the years as I found deficiencies in my system, I would try to eliminate them. I will admit that Marantz equipment that I owned was truly beautiful, and the best of the equipment of the day, without question. As I found better sounding equipment, it has been replaced. Sexy is nice but, personally, I prefer better performance, and as much as these little toys do well, they fall short where it counts in the real world.
 
Dalaudio, and Jaton, are the only two companies I can think of that still produce amps using the LM chips. I own a Jaton and it's a great sounding amp. Surprisingly I think it's the largest amp I own, in physical size, and probably weighs over 50 lbs.
 
I believe chip amps are the future of audio. Anyone who dismisses them either has a bias against them or they haven't heard what they are capable of. I know many will disagree with this comment, that's fine, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I believe it to be true.
 
cubdog said:
I believe chip amps are the future of audio. Anyone who dismisses them either has a bias against them or they haven't heard what they are capable of. I know many will disagree with this comment, that's fine, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I believe it to be true.
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This comment is perfectly true. Chip amps have been the majority of 'audio' for decades and even more so with PWM/ClassD/etc devices infiltrating every single device that makes a sound.

What they are is akin to the hybrid cars; all super efficient and clever, but lacking the strength, build quality and raw guts of a big iron V8 muscle car.

I know which ones will still be working in 40 years. I know which ones will still have parts available in every small town repair shop 10 years from now.

Chip amps are simply off-the-shelf 'solutions' for audio companies without the technical skills to nurture and develop an experienced team of audio designers; sadly, those days are long gone. I have no 'bias against them' (that was a very clever accidental pun, cubdog), but it will be big-iron amps for me.

I play with chip amps. I listen to discrete amps.
 
restorer-john said:
... Chip amps have been the majority of 'audio' for decades and even more so with PWM/ClassD/etc devices infiltrating every single device that makes a sound.

What they are is akin to the hybrid cars; all super efficient and clever, but lacking the strength, build quality and raw guts of a big iron V8 muscle car.

I know which ones will still be working in 40 years. I know which ones will still have parts available in every small town repair shop 10 years from now. ...
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Much as I enjoyed big iron V8 cars and trucks in my youth, they weren't that good: poor power-to-weight ratio, poor handling, poor brakes, inefficient and unreliable. Cars are much better now, and are even better when fully electric. Electric cars have eye-popping acceleration, and aside from the batteries, are simpler and more reliable than internal combustion vehicles. There may be parts around for V8 cars now, but they'll only be museum pieces in the future, like steam tractors have become.

Likewise, big-iron amplifiers with heavy linear power supplies and discrete components are less reliable and less efficient than "chip amps", and as designs improve, will inevitably surpass all big-iron amps in quality and power, because integrated circuit -- aka "chip" -- manufacturing techniques can produce circuits that are more precise in component value, less susceptible to noise, and waste less energy as heat than equivalent discrete circuits.
 
DaveVoorhis said:
...big-iron amplifiers with heavy linear power supplies and discrete components are less reliable and less efficient than "chip amps"...
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Less reliable? No way. That statement is rubbish. Chip amps fail way more regularly than discrete and when they do, they take out the entire PCB with them. Chip based amps are tightly packed, multi layer PCBs constructed with PbFree solder and once they fail- they go into landfill. Discrete is way more reliable, easier to repair and less likely to prematurely end up in landfill with all the consequent waste of resources, energy and contamination to soil and water.

I've been keeping stuff out of landfill my whole life by repairing gear. Chip based modern stuff may boast an efficiency in actual use, but all that goes out the window when the failure rate and life expectancy is so poor.
 
Freddymac2 said:
I know that there are many advances in audio, and they can make some pretty good music for what they are, you can not tell me they approach the sound quality of even a discrete 1975 receiver. All the best components in the world are not going to help it, it just doesn't have the heart!
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"You can't tell me", "doesn't have the heart": these are religious arguments not rational ones. When we had our Chicago Horn Club I heard Gainclones, Tri-Paths, Panasonic HT receivers and other chip amps go toe to toe with conventional amplifiers of very high quality and renown and at the least they held their own and sometimes triumphed.
 
restorer-john said:
Less reliable? No way. That statement is rubbish. Chip amps fail way more regularly than discrete and when they do, they take out the entire PCB with them. Chip based amps are tightly packed, multi layer PCBs constructed with PbFree solder and once they fail- they go into landfill. Discrete is way more reliable, easier to repair and less likely to prematurely end up in landfill with all the consequent waste of resources, energy and contamination to soil and water.

I've been keeping stuff out of landfill my whole life by repairing gear. Chip based modern stuff may boast an efficiency in actual use, but all that goes out the window when the failure rate and life expectancy is so poor.
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Electronics waste should never go into landfill; it should be recycled, and the circuit boards the chips are mounted on has nothing to do with the chip construction itself.

I don't know about the reality of cheap consumer gadgets that under-spec heatsinks and other components to meet consumer price-over-quality concerns, but quality pro audio gear has been using integrated circuit amplifiers for years, with notable reliability and robustness, especially given the typical conditions under which the gear is used. Replacing a chip is essentially no more difficult than replacing a transistor, and the other components are discrete.
 
restorer-john said:
I know which ones will still be working in 40 years. I know which ones will still have parts available in every small town repair shop 10 years from now.
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I am curious if there are any repair techs more than 10 years from retirement. The world is awash in gear that is good enough for 98% of consumers and cheap enough that repair is simply not economical compared to replacement. ...and most of us no use for anything 40 years from now.
 
restorer-john said:
This comment is perfectly true. Chip amps have been the majority of 'audio' for decades and even more so with PWM/ClassD/etc devices infiltrating every single device that makes a sound.

What they are is akin to the hybrid cars; all super efficient and clever, but lacking the strength, build quality and raw guts of a big iron V8 muscle car.

I know which ones will still be working in 40 years. I know which ones will still have parts available in every small town repair shop 10 years from now.

Chip amps are simply off-the-shelf 'solutions' for audio companies without the technical skills to nurture and develop an experienced team of audio designers; sadly, those days are long gone. I have no 'bias against them' (that was a very clever accidental pun, cubdog), but it will be big-iron amps for me.

I play with chip amps. I listen to discrete amps.
Click to expand...

But you are biased RJ. That's clearly evident. You generalize that all "chip amps" are inferior to what you prefer to listen to. Fine, but don't tell me and a lot of other like mined individuals that we can't hear. That's what you're doing. Plus, you insult a lot of fine audio engineers who work with various forms of "chip amp" technology. So play with and listen to whatever you like. But don't tell me that what I like is inferior to what you like. You don't have that right.

Also, while I strongly disagree with you on this subject I'm not about to get into the type of pissing match so prevalent on AK. We simply like different types of amps. It should, hopefully, end there.
 
Cubdog,

You made some false statements before dropping the mic. I am responding.

At no point did I say "all chip amps" are inferior to what I prefer to listen to. Please show me where I said that.
I did not tell you or anyone else what you can or cannot hear. In fact, I've made no comments on how chip amps sound. Again, please show me where I said that in this thread?
I have not insulted any "fine audio engineers". Ever. I have stated facts- existing chip amps are 'off-the-shelf' solutions and require no R&D to fabricate- it has all been done by someone else.
I did not say what you like is inferior to what I like. Again, please point me to where I said that.

Peace out. :)
 
Anytime one of you chippers wants a bake off, put the best little thing you have in your pocket, modded or not and we will see how it does driving Dahlquist DQ 10's in my home in New York, State. If you think you need fancy connectors and speaker wire bring that too. Yes I would like to be educated. I am running a MC cart though so bring your own front end. The source is quality vinyl. You really don't have a prayer guy's! I did say the chip amps are amazing, for what they are.
 
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