How do gainclones compare with quality vintage receiver/amps such as HK 690i (or any other ones you've heard)? I've noticed that some of the older amps or receivers are selling for silly prices. The entire reason I was shopping around for older gear was well...because it was cheaper. But at this point is it better to build a gainclone?
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DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
savatage1973
Addicted Member
Chip amps. Not a big fan, but then again I prefer discrete output devices, a toroid transformer the size of a coffee can and PS caps the size of beer cans. They can sound good, but the biggest weakness (at least on the ones that I have experience with) are the wall-wart power supplies.
jdsalinger
Super Member
I built an Audio Sector LM3875 with a passive pre (volume pot). I recall that it was VERY detailed and delicate with a black background and great separation of instruments. I liked it a lot and was very proud cause it was my first DIY amp.
Didn't have much bass, on its own (it was my first experience with NO tone controls.....hard to get used to that), but then I drove it with the pre-out on my 2230. Adding that tone control from the Marantz made a huge difference.
That was about 7 years ago, so I can't really recall HOW good it sounded and besides that, I only had one pair of speakers that were vintage and IMO have some flaws.
I would like to build another one now that I have some better speakers.
I really dig vintage amps, but here are some points in favor of a gainclone:
- if you can solder, I think that GC has some advantages. Having fresh solder joints, new caps and resistors, new transformers, binding posts, pots and switches outweighs the allure of vintage ( to me ).
- You have just about as much work in restoring vintage as building a GC.
- GC are pretty simple, so less in the signal path.
- If you have an issue with a vintage amp, there may be some serious troubleshooting involved.
If you are just curious and you are concerned about laying out some serious cash for a vintage piece, I'd say build a GC, you won't be disappointed and they are cheap, so it's low risk.
If you like vintage for the cosmetics and nostalgia......do like I did, buy a vintage piece that is completely shot, gut it and use the case to house your gainclone. That way, you have the vintage look with modern circuits.
Otherwise, just be patient and wait for a good deal on CL. Every one of my 4 amps are very well regarded and cost me less than $100 each. You DON'T have to pay an arm and a leg for good gear.
Didn't have much bass, on its own (it was my first experience with NO tone controls.....hard to get used to that), but then I drove it with the pre-out on my 2230. Adding that tone control from the Marantz made a huge difference.
That was about 7 years ago, so I can't really recall HOW good it sounded and besides that, I only had one pair of speakers that were vintage and IMO have some flaws.
I would like to build another one now that I have some better speakers.
I really dig vintage amps, but here are some points in favor of a gainclone:
- if you can solder, I think that GC has some advantages. Having fresh solder joints, new caps and resistors, new transformers, binding posts, pots and switches outweighs the allure of vintage ( to me ).
- You have just about as much work in restoring vintage as building a GC.
- GC are pretty simple, so less in the signal path.
- If you have an issue with a vintage amp, there may be some serious troubleshooting involved.
If you are just curious and you are concerned about laying out some serious cash for a vintage piece, I'd say build a GC, you won't be disappointed and they are cheap, so it's low risk.
If you like vintage for the cosmetics and nostalgia......do like I did, buy a vintage piece that is completely shot, gut it and use the case to house your gainclone. That way, you have the vintage look with modern circuits.
Otherwise, just be patient and wait for a good deal on CL. Every one of my 4 amps are very well regarded and cost me less than $100 each. You DON'T have to pay an arm and a leg for good gear.
I really dig vintage amps, but here are some points in favor of a gainclone:
- if you can solder, I think that GC has some advantages. Having fresh solder joints, new caps and resistors, new transformers, binding posts, pots and switches outweighs the allure of vintage ( to me ).
- You have just about as much work in restoring vintage as building a GC.
- GC are pretty simple, so less in the signal path.
- If you have an issue with a vintage amp, there may be some serious troubleshooting involved.
If you are just curious and you are concerned about laying out some serious cash for a vintage piece, I'd say build a GC, you won't be disappointed and they are cheap, so it's low risk.
If you like vintage for the cosmetics and nostalgia......do like I did, buy a vintage piece that is completely shot, gut it and use the case to house your gainclone. That way, you have the vintage look with modern circuits.
Otherwise, just be patient and wait for a good deal on CL. Every one of my 4 amps are very well regarded and cost me less than $100 each. You DON'T have to pay an arm and a leg for good gear.
I totally agree with jdsalinger. The gainclones are great amps, but a little bit of luck and patience may get you a lot more buying vintage. Me, I like to build new stuff and buy vintage, best of both worlds.
KC
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
The more popular term these days is chip amp and let me go on record by saying that all chip amps are not created equal. I started with the T-amps ( Tri-path ) amps
and to me they were more of a novelty than anything else. The amps from Class D were all the rage for a time but while they offer high power like the Hypex they
sound more clinical and dry compared to the new TPA chips from Texas Instruments. The TPA's have the warmth of tube amps and perform at near SET level.
Any of the inexpensive Texas Instrument TPA's I have ( TPA3110, TPA3116 and TPA3118 ) paired with the right speakers would offer superior SQ to all the vintage
amps I've owned. And over the years I've had some of the best amps from HK, Marantz, Fisher, Scott, Dynaco etc. but they never delivered what I'm hearing from the
TPA's. A company based in India sent me their latest TPA3118 called the Volt+ to test and review. Out of the box the naked board produced such sonic bliss I was
literally close to tears. The parts necessary to build an enclosure for the Volt+ can't arrive soon enough.
and to me they were more of a novelty than anything else. The amps from Class D were all the rage for a time but while they offer high power like the Hypex they
sound more clinical and dry compared to the new TPA chips from Texas Instruments. The TPA's have the warmth of tube amps and perform at near SET level.
Any of the inexpensive Texas Instrument TPA's I have ( TPA3110, TPA3116 and TPA3118 ) paired with the right speakers would offer superior SQ to all the vintage
amps I've owned. And over the years I've had some of the best amps from HK, Marantz, Fisher, Scott, Dynaco etc. but they never delivered what I'm hearing from the
TPA's. A company based in India sent me their latest TPA3118 called the Volt+ to test and review. Out of the box the naked board produced such sonic bliss I was
literally close to tears. The parts necessary to build an enclosure for the Volt+ can't arrive soon enough.
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
Latest high power TPA3251D2
The "gainclone" is (to me, at least) a work of complete fiction. For example, here's a quote from wiki:
"The Gaincard shook the audiophile community with its unconventional design." Really??? It's a chip made by National Semiconductor. Nothing wrong with that, but when a commercial outfit (47 Labs) simply puts a chip in a box and then makes wild claims for it I'm not impressed. There must be hundreds of other products (eg car stereos, TVs, bedside radios etc.) using the exact same chip and circuit. Then instead of the DIY community simply building amps with National Semicinductor's chips they pretend they're clones of some special design by 47Labs. Eh? I'm baffled.
If you want to build a very simple amp instead of restoring an old one it makes sense to build it with a chip. There are lots to choose from, both linear and class D, and the chips come with application notes. Just be prepared for a lot of mechanical work in making the case and making it functional. That picture in the post above ^ shows an amp only about 10% made imho. No Case? Nothing insulated? Would you want your wife or kids to use that?
"The Gaincard shook the audiophile community with its unconventional design." Really??? It's a chip made by National Semiconductor. Nothing wrong with that, but when a commercial outfit (47 Labs) simply puts a chip in a box and then makes wild claims for it I'm not impressed. There must be hundreds of other products (eg car stereos, TVs, bedside radios etc.) using the exact same chip and circuit. Then instead of the DIY community simply building amps with National Semicinductor's chips they pretend they're clones of some special design by 47Labs. Eh? I'm baffled.
If you want to build a very simple amp instead of restoring an old one it makes sense to build it with a chip. There are lots to choose from, both linear and class D, and the chips come with application notes. Just be prepared for a lot of mechanical work in making the case and making it functional. That picture in the post above ^ shows an amp only about 10% made imho. No Case? Nothing insulated? Would you want your wife or kids to use that?
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
TPA amps are plug and play. This one uses an Ikea picture frame as a case and the power supply it rests on is what ham radio operators use.
It's not rocket science as most of us are capable of twisting and connecting wires together.
It's not rocket science as most of us are capable of twisting and connecting wires together.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
The facts of the matter are exactly as Rothwell states in the post above. The 47 Labs products are an absolute affront to High Fidelity and deserve no respect whatsoever. Some crazy Japanese guy puts 3rd grade science project components in a cheap box and charges stupid money for them. (have a look at the internals of their FM tuner for a laugh) There is a sucker born every minute and HiFi mags feed that crap to their followers and bingo! every guy with a soldering iron and a modicum of ability grabs yet another chip amp and puts it in a tin can and calls it 'revolutionary' or 'amazing'. It makes me laugh.
I was pulling apart car cassette stereo units in the 70s, gutting the audio amp stages (lots of TDA/UPc/ NS/PHILIPS chips) PCB and wiring it to my 12v CB radio supply and doing exactly the same thing. But I was about 8 years old, with my first soldering iron!
These monolithic ICs are just cheap, consumer electronic solutions chips. TVs, boomboxes, car audio, etc. They are nothing special. They do not push the boundaries of fidelity, performance or anything else, except cheapness. They are simply fun little distraction projects where you can get a whole lot of 'loud' in a small package. Cute, but don't kid yourself.
The PWM/PDM 'digital' amplifier chip based amps are so generally bad in terms of radiated HF hash, that most of my test gear (especially PC based) cannot be used in the same room. That aint High Fidelity. They are broadband AM transmitters- try using a tuner near one.
I was pulling apart car cassette stereo units in the 70s, gutting the audio amp stages (lots of TDA/UPc/ NS/PHILIPS chips) PCB and wiring it to my 12v CB radio supply and doing exactly the same thing. But I was about 8 years old, with my first soldering iron!
These monolithic ICs are just cheap, consumer electronic solutions chips. TVs, boomboxes, car audio, etc. They are nothing special. They do not push the boundaries of fidelity, performance or anything else, except cheapness. They are simply fun little distraction projects where you can get a whole lot of 'loud' in a small package. Cute, but don't kid yourself.
The PWM/PDM 'digital' amplifier chip based amps are so generally bad in terms of radiated HF hash, that most of my test gear (especially PC based) cannot be used in the same room. That aint High Fidelity. They are broadband AM transmitters- try using a tuner near one.
savatage1973
Addicted Member
AMEN!!! I am sitting here listening to 4 Krell KMA 160 monoblocs that you can probably arc weld with their outputs. They weigh a ton (actually about 100 lbs each), and can drive a cement block. Downside--each amp draws ~8A at idle (since they run pure Class A) and can heat a room in a pinch. In the owner's manual Krell rates them at 160w into an 8 ohm load, but 1280w into a 1 ohm load, and you can adjust the protection circuit to run lower than 1 ohm. Try that with some POS chip amp.
OMGCat!
Super Member
I don't have any experience with the better chip amps but from the few I've listened to I've been extremely impressed with what I've heard.
I've got linear supplies from 12v to 36v and have tried a few of the cheapo populated boards from eBay and compared to a ton of vintage stuff I've heard I'd prefer the chip amps. No hiss, no crosstalk, no rolled off highs. I mostly bought them because I was curious and a good percent of them run less than $20 shipped.
I'd really like to hear one running on a well designed board with a better power supply and decent components.
I've got linear supplies from 12v to 36v and have tried a few of the cheapo populated boards from eBay and compared to a ton of vintage stuff I've heard I'd prefer the chip amps. No hiss, no crosstalk, no rolled off highs. I mostly bought them because I was curious and a good percent of them run less than $20 shipped.
I'd really like to hear one running on a well designed board with a better power supply and decent components.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
Yes, I think we've all bought them because of curiosity, and, of course they are SO cheap. You can buy them fully populated for less than the coast of the volume pot alone.
I've got a few TDA7297 little baby ones here for my son's 8yo science project (interference patterns in fluids). I'll post some scope shots just for fun a bit later.
I've got a few TDA7297 little baby ones here for my son's 8yo science project (interference patterns in fluids). I'll post some scope shots just for fun a bit later.
OMGCat!
Super Member
It really is hard to not hit "buy it now" when the total price of the amp shipped to your door is less than what I'd expect shipping alone would cost. I've heard that some of the better ones are fairly stout for driving low ohm loads but again I've not tested or heard any of them.
I would be interested in the scope shots honestly. Do you feel it's a flaw in the design of the chip itself or of the cheapo board/components?
I would be interested in the scope shots honestly. Do you feel it's a flaw in the design of the chip itself or of the cheapo board/components?
restorer-john
Addicted Member
The reason I'm suggesting the 7297 is that I have few here on my bench and it is a BTL BJT classic design, hardly changed from the early designs. Many of the DIYers love that little chip and go crazy with 'mods'. It's a class AB non 'digital' (PWM) design, so it will play with my test gear nicely.
I haven't actually bench tested this particular incarnation, but it is the extremely popular unit you can buy posted to your door complete for less than a decent coffee. I'll do some basic tests after lunch (it's lazy Sunday today)
I haven't actually bench tested this particular incarnation, but it is the extremely popular unit you can buy posted to your door complete for less than a decent coffee. I'll do some basic tests after lunch (it's lazy Sunday today)
just dave
vintage rules!
I like sour cream and onion.
ConradH
Lunatic Member
Just using a commercial power chip will give you something OK, but build a composite with a few additional ICs and you've really got something. No affilliation, but look at the specs for this- http://www.neurochrome.com/modulus-86-rev-2-0/