Grado Black2 p-mount - taking the plunge.

[Pio1980]

I mentioned adding a bit of comp mass earlier, and yes, no skate with am LT arm.

 

[Multiplex]

There is T4P standard and then there is P Mount. There were plenty of P Mount turntables that are not necessarily limited to T4P standard because they offer bias controls and counterweight adjustment.

Precisely this.^

The Pmount was a really killer idea. Unfortunately, it's largely obsolete. Pmount Grados offer one of a dwindling few flavors that can still be used with turntables that have Pmount sockets AND adjustable VTF. Of the three Pmount TTs I've owned, only one had no adjustments, and required a T4P cartridge.

It's one thing to not be aware of a cartridge's requirements, or to not have the ability to make the necessary adjustments. It is quite another to be aware of the cartridge's requirements, and buy it anyway... All the while, having the understanding and ability to make these adjustments, yet refusing to do so.

Can't blame Grado for that one.

 

[maxhifi]

I mentioned adding a bit of comp mass earlier, and yes, no skate with am LT arm.

Sorry I didnt catch that. I've got one on order right now for a Technics SL-3. What did you use as the weight? I'm thinking like a small piece of lead glued to the top of the cartridge.

 

[Pio1980]

I didn't myself, but a bit of lead attached to the top near the end should do.

 

[cafe latte]

You just convinced me how right I am that they are garbage.

I told you your arm was not a good match as wrong compliance and you say that convinces you Grado are garbage? You use a grado with a compliance miss match and it is the carts fault..
That said your description of mud sounding etc sounds to me like something is very wrong with something, even older gold 1 etc had lovely sweet mids and good bass just a bit rolled off up at the top. New 2 range have extension in the highs too. Not sure what your problem is. Some of early black 2 had stylus tip not straight, dont this thins issue was high models, wonder if your black 2 might have a problem. maybe misaligned due to P mount or just very big compliance mismatch. Or you enjoy accentuated highs which you are never going to get from a Grado. Re Shure, I have in my collection a Shure M97xe and hate it, it is muted compared to new Grado blue 2 I have and Grado is much sweeter and wider, no comparison.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

I have a LOT of Shure's and one has an SAS on it. No matter what I A/B this Grado against, it loses. Badly. The lowly Shure M92 kicks it's @$$, let alone the M97xE. The only cart I have that might be deemed worse sounding is this unnamed cart from overseas:

http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/cata...e=MfgNameNeedles&MfgName=Japanese&Categories=

This is NOT how 'sound was meant to sound'. Not even close.

I have a Shure M92 and an M91 they are ok but brightly lit in the highs. Like I said either you have a big problem with something added to known compliance miss match or you are looking for the same accentuated highs as in the Shure M92 which is not correct and you wont find in a Grado.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

The other interesting thing that the Fozgometer demonstrates is that even channel balance on P Mount is almost impossible since neither T4P nor non T4P allows for any kind of azimuth adjustment. You can get a reading of decent channel balance, but regarding separation, one side can be as much as 15dB higher than the other. The minuscule azimuth tweak necessary to get perfect balance and equal separation figures is impossible to carry out with P Mount/T4P. It’s not uncommon to read 15dB for example on one side and 30dB (or higher) on the other. Could be overly OCD, but when setting up 1/2” cartridges, unequal separation readings usually means about a 1/4 degree rotation of the headshell one way or the other, which is done easily enough.

The advantage with Grado over other P Mounts is that it is possible to manipulate the stylus by rotating it a little bit one way or the other to achieve perfect channel balance and equal separation figures while mounted on a T4P or P Mount deck that doesn’t have azimuth adjustment—I assume any and all of them. I can’t think of another cartridge, period, that has a stylus that can be so repositioned. Clearly, this is a design flaw, but it is a flaw that can be manipulated to one’s unique advantage.

One more thing that might help the OP sort out the Grado. The Fozgometer has also demonstrated that simply inserting the Grado stylus into the cartridge to its stopping point often does not achieve proper or optimum alignment of the stylus to pole pieces. Separation readings of about 10dB to only 15dB are all too common. Withdraw the stylus out of the fully seated position a hair or two will result in separation readings of 30dB for the Gold2 and 35dB for the Black2.

Pretty sure the main difference between the hot/cold consumer response to the Prestige series and the nearly universal appreciation for the woodies can be traced to Grado factory positioning of the stylus for optimum performance with the wood bodies and then cementing them into place. Anyone with a Fozgometer or some other such way to read output, separation, etc., could easily do this for themselves with a Prestige model.

Perhaps @Vinylmasters you could experiment with this and see if some of the sparkle and extension you desire could be brought out this way. For someone like you, who uses P Mount to make transfers, I’d think that investing in a Fozgometer would be a wise choice. They do show up on eBay at times for only about $100.

IMO you are on the right track, P mount does not allow for any alignment it is highly likely that the OP's carts alignment is way off. Some black 2 for example has stylus tilted, not ideal, but if someone uses a headshell mounting can overcome the problem, not so with P mount. Also cant say enough how important compliance is with Grado, they are one of the few high compliance carts still for sale, putting them on an undamped medium compliance arm they are not going to work even close to optimal.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Would it be totally crazy to just add a touch of mass on top of the Grado P mount, to make it track at exactly 1.5 gram? It would take only a tiny amount.

On a linear tracker anti-skate should be irrelevant, no?

Actually Grado need more like 1.6 to 1.7g to work well, if OP is less than 1.5 it is another reason things are not working as expected..
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Grado that could read the carrier signal for cd4 measured 700 ohms dc resistance and has high inductance too. Older gold one etc had 480 ohms coil resistance, but the new blue 2 and gold 2 I have measure 675 ohms dc resistance despite what the instructions says which is close to old spec cd4 Grado and tops are night and day from old gold 1. Gold 1 was mostly flat to 10,000 Hz but has a bump at 10,00 and trailed off at around 15 or 16,000Hz (cant hear higher than that anyway). I have not yet found a plot for the Gold 2 or any of the two range, but higher inductance should flatten plot and extend the highs so one would expect the hump to flatten and max high go higher and listening test does point to this at least on my system. I would love to see what plat actually is though, it would be interesting to see if it is what I expect.
Chris

 

[maxhifi]

Actually Grado need more like 1.6 to 1.7g to work well, if OP is less than 1.5 it is another reason things are not working as expected..
Chris

That sounds easy to achieve. I've got an ortofon digital scale, and lots of patience.

Which is better, 1.6 or 1.7? Split the difference? I usually set most cartridges to 2g.

 

[Pio1980]

Lead foil used as back shielding for intra-oral dental film is one possibility. Attached to the cart itself, it leaves the LT turntable adjustments T4-P standard.

 

[cafe latte]

That sounds easy to achieve. I've got an ortofon digital scale, and lots of patience.

Which is better, 1.6 or 1.7? Split the difference? I usually set most cartridges to 2g.

Yes split if you like, I normally dial in just under 1.7g. Sounds better than 1.5g IMO.
Chris

 

[Vinylmasters]

Would it be totally crazy to just add a touch of mass on top of the Grado P mount, to make it track at exactly 1.5 gram? It would take only a tiny amount.

On a linear tracker anti-skate should be irrelevant, no?

I listened to it at 1.5. Why bother if it already sounds bad?

 

[maxhifi]

I listened to it at 1.5. Why bother if it already sounds bad?

I have had mixed results with Grado too. I have had two blacks, which both sounded bad on inexpensive turntables and a GF 3, which sounded awesome on an SME 3012. I'm holding out hope the black 2 sounds decent on my technics linear tracker - like you I'm just curious what all the people who like Grado are hearing, and that old GF 3 memory is still there.

 

[Pio1980]

I think I had one of the better ones, loaned to me, on a Pioneer PL-L1000 sounding pretty good.

 

[Vinylmasters]

@Vinylmasters[/USER] you could experiment with this and see if some of the sparkle and extension you desire could be brought out this way. For someone like you, who uses P Mount to make transfers, I’d think that investing in a Fozgometer would be a wise choice. They do show up on eBay at times for only about $100.

I think many are missing the point here. The entire objective of p-mount or T4P is 'plug and play'. Grado's obviously are not. Perhaps because of that, they don't sound 'right' or 'good'. All I know is I'm not buying another one.

 

[Pio1980]

I've no idea why non T4-P compliant "P-mount" carts were offered, seems to miss the point of the plug-and-play format entirely.

 

[Pio1980]

Or turntables! I don’t have much experience with the non T4P P Mount turntables, but I wonder if any of them did have any kind of azimuth adjustment. Not that I’m going to go crazy trying to find out...

QC assurance by the cart/stylus oem should render that redundant, at least above the entry level. The factors involved include tip alignment, but mainly take in the generator pole alignment.

 

[Pio1980]

Analogue engraved audio is fairly simple, except for the details. Getting away from the physical stuff, including EQ, is the appeal of digital audio recording and playback.

 

[cafe latte]

I think many are missing the point here. The entire objective of p-mount or T4P is 'plug and play'. Grado's obviously are not. Perhaps because of that, they don't sound 'right' or 'good'. All I know is I'm not buying another one.

Not every p mount works on every arm compliance needs to be right too and yours is not. Your are blaming the cart and you are listening on an arm with wrong compliance.
Chris