Vinylmasters
Super Member
We'll agree to disagree.
Grado Black2 p-mount - taking the plunge.
- Thread starter Vinylmasters
- Start date
We'll agree to disagree.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
You can disagree, but the arm you have the cart on is the wrong effective mass for the compliance of the cart. You are not even altering the tracking force.Not all carts are the same compliance and not all P mounts are either.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
My point exactly, your turntable has an effective mass including cartridge of only 9g which is a lot less without the cart so it is an ideal arm for a high compliance cart like the Grado. The 1301 has an arm which has an effective mass of 22g including cart weight of 6g which is quite high way way too high for a Grado more than double the effective mass of the SL-MA1 which is ideal for the Grado. The problem the OP has is not the cart but a huge compliance miss match.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
See my previous post, this is your problem..
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
I have a Stanton 881, I used it for ages on my Technics arm and it sounded ok (high compliance cart medium compliance arm). One day I fitted it to my Hadcock arm which is low effective mass and ideal for the 881. Wow total transformation now the 881 really sang like never before. Then I got the damper for the Technics which extended the compliance of the arm. Now I can use the 881 on the Technics and the difference between the two arms is small, but the correct compliance Hadcock is that carts happy place. Going the other way I have some carts that just sing on the Lenco arm which is high effective mass as the carts are low compliance and those carts sound nothing special on the medium or high compliance arms it is all about matching the cart to the arm.
Chris
Chris
Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
@cafe latte
You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that the OP is really looking for a solution. It's too bad, especially considering how many threads exist in the AK archives about compliance matching, and how many little tricks are shared for making Grados happy in less than perfect conditions. (When Marc Morin chimes in on Grados, you'll want to pay close attention to what he has to say.) They also need a little break in time to open up... At least mine did. This one probably won't be given the chance.
But, if there is any silver lining to this thread, it's that it has made me dig out my Grados again and give them another go-round in my main system. (Non Pmount, or course.) First I tried the Black2. It is not as bright as some, but it has a smooth, deep midrange and top end detail that really doesn't exist elsewhere at it's price point. I can hear the shimmer and decay of cymbals and the air around vocals. The Shure I had mounted prior, though brighter, doesn't do this nearly as well. Then I mounted my Marc Morin potted ZF-1 body with a Silver stylus, and spent quite a while getting it setup. It's finicky as hell! Finally got it about as good as I'll get it, and spun a record. Loved the acoustic guitars and background vocals. So I spun another. And another. My toe was tapping, I was smiling, and I haven't gotten a damn thing done all day. That's when you know it's good.
So maybe Grado isn't for everyone, but those who know, know they know...
You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that the OP is really looking for a solution. It's too bad, especially considering how many threads exist in the AK archives about compliance matching, and how many little tricks are shared for making Grados happy in less than perfect conditions. (When Marc Morin chimes in on Grados, you'll want to pay close attention to what he has to say.) They also need a little break in time to open up... At least mine did. This one probably won't be given the chance.
But, if there is any silver lining to this thread, it's that it has made me dig out my Grados again and give them another go-round in my main system. (Non Pmount, or course.) First I tried the Black2. It is not as bright as some, but it has a smooth, deep midrange and top end detail that really doesn't exist elsewhere at it's price point. I can hear the shimmer and decay of cymbals and the air around vocals. The Shure I had mounted prior, though brighter, doesn't do this nearly as well. Then I mounted my Marc Morin potted ZF-1 body with a Silver stylus, and spent quite a while getting it setup. It's finicky as hell! Finally got it about as good as I'll get it, and spun a record. Loved the acoustic guitars and background vocals. So I spun another. And another. My toe was tapping, I was smiling, and I haven't gotten a damn thing done all day. That's when you know it's good.
So maybe Grado isn't for everyone, but those who know, know they know...
Vinylmasters
Super Member
As previously noted, I had Grado's on my JVC QL-Y55f and an Onkyo DD table too (can't remember the model # on that one though. EDIT to add: I tried it on a few Technics plastic mount p-mounts as well. Still blech). Sounded like crap on those too. Simply, I just don't like them no matter how they are setup. Thought I'd try one based on what I read here, but it was a waste of $75.00. If anyone wants to swap for a few old p-mount carts.... lol.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
The effective mass of the JVC is 17g which is way too high for a Grado this is the point I am making compliance is wrong, the turntable you are using now has about double or more effective mass than is optimal for a Grado you have no chance of making it sound right with this level of compliance miss match. And trying on plastic entry level turntables is hardly a valid test either.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Also curious what is rest of system.?Wondering if something else at play also apart compliance mismatch which is clear.
Maybe system likes certain carts ie hard speakers sweeter carts sound better vica verca.
Maybe system likes certain carts ie hard speakers sweeter carts sound better vica verca.
Vinylmasters
Super Member
If a $75 cart can't 'swing' with tables like a Technics SL-1301 or JVC QL-Y55f? I'm sorry, but that's garbage to me.
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Vinylmasters
Super Member
There is nothing wrong with my system(s), thanks.
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Vinylmasters
Super Member
cafe latte
Addicted Member
You just dont get it, AT3600l low compliance works great on light arm, Grado high compliance works great on light arms. You are just fitting the Grado to the wrong effective mass arms. There are options but as others have said you have shown no interest. The SL1301 has an unusually heavy arm this is why the Grado is not working well.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Then share what speakers amp etc? Some speakers sound better with sweeter carts some harder carts.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
He tried a Grado on two turntables both that had way too high effective mass arms for the cart and he did not even run them at correct tracking force. Cant imagine why the Grado did not sound good..
Chris
Vinylmasters
Super Member
Chris - look. I already stated my equipment. I have 14 turntables at the moment, at least 8 amps of VERY clean 100 wpc or more. It's NOT 'junk'. ALL I am saying is every Grado I have has sucked IMHO. Hasn't a damn thing to do with my setup either. It has to do with my ears in a side-by-side comparison of a $75 entry level cart with just about every cart in this box. It failed miserably, even against the other entry level carts. I'm sorry if that disappoints you, but a $75 entry level cart SHOULD perform well on 'average' tables. This does not. Tracked at EITHER 1.25 OR 1.5, as I had previously noted, it STILL sounds like crap. IMHO? It IS garbage. Sorry if that offends or disappoints you, but I don't care about your points on arm mass and such on this, because a $75 entry level p-mount cart should NOT have to deal with all of that because it IS 'plug and play'. Thanks.
![000_2135[1].jpg](/forums/data/attachments/1531/1531868-ba15c3f3dc0937f724890a5fd358332b.jpg?hash=uhXD89wJN_ "000_2135[1].jpg")
Vinylmasters
Super Member
Please explain while all of my other p-mount carts perform as they should on the tables I previously noted and the Grado doesn't. Thanks.
Vinylmasters
Super Member
I get this. I take a different take, where I match the cart to the album and gear there (that's why I have so many different carts and styli, because each one has its own unique voice. Grado does too, but in all honesty I have ONLY used them when a client so requested I use a Grado (and yes, it's happened). Yet I ALWAYS gave them a spin with what I thought was better. Only once did the person stay with the Grado. He was adamant about it. he got a sub-standard transfer IMHO, but he's happy.
They just don't make ME happy. I truly think they sound terrible, no matter how they are setup (I've used non-p-mount Grado's as well). It doesn't even fit MY 'standards', let alone T4P standards. Again, I tried the Grado2 because of reviews here. It just wasn't worth the $75 in my opinion.