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Have you seen Ebay? Would you pay $3000 - 4000 for a Sansui 9090db?

I'm one of those 30-somethings guilty of helping support a robust vintage market. Yes, some of us love the old school aesthetic/sound, and vinyl and DACs are the usual sources. Although I'm also guilty of contributing to the cassette renaissance too - and FM is alive and well in my household.

On another note, I just ended up making an unexpected turntable purchase today. I just wanna reiterate that good deals do still exist - but it does require patience from local searches and not getting caught in the madness that is eBay :)
They’re beautiful, what’s not to love? If you enjoy good music, you need something nice to play it back with — may as well look good too. Enjoy the music. :thumbsup:
 
I don't get why so many AK'ers get so upset about current prices. Yes, it would be great if you could still buy such and such brand for next to nothing, but things change. It's good for the ones that bought when the prices were still low. Bad for the ones just getting into vintage audio.
Nothing stays the same forever. Stocks, muscle cars, housing, ect... Coulda, woulda shoulda.

It's not that it's upsetting, it's a befuddled curiosity as to "WHY" the Sansui 9090DB has reached the $4000-5000 mark, is it soooo good sounding to command those prices? or is it hype? I never heard one to be honest. I have one, found it at an estate sale years ago. its not working cause i need to change out a few things before I even turn it on...I know it was the top of the line for 1976 and 1977 in Sansui's lineup. I mean, I have a 120 wpc JVC receiver that you could buy for $100 today, maybe less. Is the Sansui 40 times better sounding than the JVC? What I'm trying to say is that anything has a cut off point were the thing itself stops being worth it after a certain amount, just like in an auction bidding war there is a cut off point were the thing your bidding on has past the point of worth, and you move on to something else...Case in point for those who follow hockey Guy Lafleur just past away and now people are selling anything with his face and name on it for exuberant amounts. People take advantage, thats my point. i dont see vintage audio as a club of like minded individuals trading, selling, buying anymore, its a group of people that are buying everything low and selling at high prices. The main principals of Capitalism. It's called price gouging.

To sell for “Profit”. If you buy something you have no personal interest in, solely in the hopes that it will increase in value so you can sell it at a profit, that’s “speculation”. When many people do that, it causes a “price bubble”, which eventually collapses.
 
I had a Sansui 9090db and I really liked it, as much for its looks as for its sonics. The sonics were not the be-all end-all of sound reproduction, but it was nice. Of course, it's not just the receiver/amp, but the speakers and other components that factor into it as well. I would not get another one for $4000 - 5000.

To me, price gouging is artificially raising the price of an essential item (goods/services) in times of an emergency or extreme demand. The high prices of vintage receivers reflects a change in market conditions, not gouging IMHO.
 
It's not that it's upsetting, it's a befuddled curiosity as to "WHY" the Sansui 9090DB has reached the $4000-5000 mark, is it soooo good sounding to command those prices? or is it hype? I never heard one to be honest. I have one, found it at an estate sale years ago. its not working cause i need to change out a few things before I even turn it on...I know it was the top of the line for 1976 and 1977 in Sansui's lineup. I mean, I have a 120 wpc JVC receiver that you could buy for $100 today, maybe less. Is the Sansui 40 times better sounding than the JVC? What I'm trying to say is that anything has a cut off point were the thing itself stops being worth it after a certain amount, just like in an auction bidding war there is a cut off point were the thing your bidding on has past the point of worth, and you move on to something else...Case in point for those who follow hockey Guy Lafleur just past away and now people are selling anything with his face and name on it for exuberant amounts. People take advantage, thats my point. i dont see vintage audio as a club of like minded individuals trading, selling, buying anymore, its a group of people that are buying everything low and selling at high prices. The main principals of Capitalism. It's called price gouging.

To sell for “Profit”. If you buy something you have no personal interest in, solely in the hopes that it will increase in value so you can sell it at a profit, that’s “speculation”. When many people do that, it causes a “price bubble”, which eventually collapses.

That is NOT "price gouging". Price gouging is when someone raises the price artificially high when people NEED to buy something. Like if there is a shortage of something. But even then it's "supply and demand".....less supply and more demand always causes a price increase just as the opposite causes the price to drop. If people are willing to pay a high price for a collectible because they WANT it not NEED it.....then that's just what the market is. With your definition, all those pieces of art that sell for millions, or rare coins, or vintage restored cars would all fall under your description of "price gouging". And it's clearly not.
 
It's not that it's upsetting, it's a befuddled curiosity as to "WHY" the Sansui 9090DB has reached the $4000-5000 mark, is it soooo good sounding to command those prices? or is it hype?

It's a collectible. There are baseball cards worth millions, paintings worth hundreds of millions, bottles of wine worth hundreds of thousands, beanie babies worth thousands (still), speaker drivers worth $10k, coins worth millions, stamps worth millions, cars worth tens of millions, Pokemon cards worth millions (supposedly). Why is three grand for a top-of-the-line receiver that originally COST that much (adjusted for inflation) so difficult to comprehend?
 
While this certainly will not be the last thread on why vintage audio is collectible and can bring a higher value sale than many non-collectors would pay, EastPoint's (and others) comments are spot on.

For some odd reason, I don't see such "conflict" from others when someone states they collect cars, video games, comics, art, etc.. Oddly, for many, it seems those are the "acceptable" categories to collect?

Well, would anyone pay $268k for a 1998 Toyota Supra? Seems someone was willing to pay whatever it took: https://www.yahoo.com/autos/someone-paid-265-000-1998-130700752.html
 
Hype is a large part of the current pricing trends, no doubt. The performance of the gear is static at best, and in reality is declining with the passage of time, save for proper restoration work being done. Hype has become its own market distortion, creatng a bubble. Concurrently with that there has been an increase in collecting of certain highly sought after models, and there has been a large enough pool of buyers - thus far - with the money to burn, to sustain the trend for a while. But it is a trend, and trends are notoriously fickle.

Already touched on upthread here are the demographic angles and what that shift in the market may - or may not - portend for future popularity of this gear with regard to pricing going up, or collapsing, as the case may eventually be. I can postulate on that too, and have in other threads, so will not rehash it here yet again.

Having said all that, let us watch and see how hot the market stays with gas (and diesel) at $5-7/gal and rising in the US, substantially higher than that in Canada and Europe after converting for currency and units of measurement, energy prices (home gas and electric) followng suit and food costs/shrinkflation taking an ever bigger bite out of everyone's @$$. There are the independently wealthy who can spend with wreckless abandon, and then there is everyone else who has to operate within the constraints of some sort of budget.

Way more spent on necessities will mean further sacrificing of the luxuries. By my perception, we are just now at the threshold of obvious pain for many people who have long thought of themselves as doing well financially, and the underlying reasons for food and energy cost increases, and inflation which is its own issue apart from supply and demand, aren't going away anytime soon. I distinctly remenber financial big shots throwing around the word "transitory" in the first quarter of this year; a whopping three months ago. They aren't so cocky and dismissive with that sort of talk now, are they? Uh huh. That turned on a dime, which incidentally is now worth about...2 cents.

In the US, with home mortgage rates having crossed 6% - which is not outrageous by any historical standard - home sales have fallen off a cliff. People are either spooked, or tapped out, and either way they aren't buying. The worse other expenses beat them down, the more they will dispense with buying non-essentials. This is partly a psychological reaction to the sudden shock of changing circumstances, but mostly it is a matter of economic reality.

Most people have only so much in expendable funds, and are already being forced to adjust how they are allocating that pool of money. No one is going to starve themselves, or forego fueling their vehicle, or heating their home in the dead of winter to pay $3000-4000 for a 9090DB. Thus the pool of buyers will shrink and thereby the market will be forced to adjust downward. Naturally there will be some resistance to this (abandoning one's expectations is difficult) so the trend change may take some time to manifest. To put it another way, the forced abandonment of decadence will come hard to many who may have lived their entire lives so far in that frame of reference. But it will come.

When that happens, and finally breaks the momentum in the collectibility (and upward pricing) of vintage gear, there is no assurance the previous apex of the market will ever return, as the circumstances we now find ourselves in easily qualify as a paradigm shift. This is the sort of period in human endeavor where seemingly unending trends and assumptions on "how things are" get consigned to the ash heap of history. There are big problems with unpleasant outcomes in play. Which is to say: prepare to have your normalcy bias pulled out from under you.
 
Hype is a large part of the current pricing trends, no doubt. The performance of the gear is static at best, and in reality is declining with the passage of time, save for proper restoration work being done. Hype has become its own market distortion, creatng a bubble. Concurrently with that there has been an increase in collecting of certain highly sought after models, and there has been a large enough pool of buyers - thus far - with the money to burn, to sustain the trend for a while. But it is a trend, and trends are notoriously fickle.

Already touched on upthread here are the demographic angles and what that shift in the market may - or may not - portend for future popularity of this gear with regard to pricing going up, or collapsing, as the case may eventually be. I can postulate on that too, and have in other threads, so will not rehash it here yet again.

Having said all that, let us watch and see how hot the market stays with gas (and diesel) at $5-7/gal and rising in the US, substantially higher than that in Canada and Europe after converting for currency and units of measurement, energy prices (home gas and electric) followng suit and food costs/shrinkflation taking an ever bigger bite out of everyone's @$$. There are the independently wealthy who can spend with wreckless abandon, and then there is everyone else who has to operate within the constraints of some sort of budget.

Way more spent on necessities will mean further sacrificing of the luxuries. By my perception, we are just now at the threshold of obvious pain for many people who have long thought of themselves as doing well financially, and the underlying reasons for food and energy cost increases, and inflation which is its own issue apart from supply and demand, aren't going away anytime soon. I distinctly remenber financial big shots throwing around the word "transitory" in the first quarter of this year; a whopping three months ago. They aren't so cocky and dismissive with that sort of talk now, are they? Uh huh. That turned on a dime, which incidentally is now worth about...2 cents.

In the US, with home mortgage rates having crossed 6% - which is not outrageous by any historical standard - home sales have fallen off a cliff. People are either spooked, or tapped out, and either way they aren't buying. The worse other expenses beat them down, the more they will dispense with buying non-essentials. This is partly a psychological reaction to the sudden shock of changing circumstances, but mostly it is a matter of economic reality.

Most people have only so much in expendable funds, and are already being forced to adjust how they are allocating that pool of money. No one is going to starve themselves, or forego fueling their vehicle, or heating their home in the dead of winter to pay $3000-4000 for a 9090DB. Thus the pool of buyers will shrink and thereby the market will be forced to adjust downward. Naturally there will be some resistance to this (abandoning one's expectations is difficult) so the trend change may take some time to manifest. To put it another way, the forced abandonment of decadence will come hard to many who may have lived their entire lives so far in that frame of reference. But it will come.

When that happens, and finally breaks the momentum in the collectibility (and upward pricing) of vintage gear, there is no assurance the previous apex of the market will ever return, as the circumstances we now find ourselves in easily qualify as a paradigm shift. This is the sort of period in human endeavor where seemingly unending trends and assumptions on "how things are" get consigned to the ash heap of history. There are big problems with unpleasant outcomes in play. Which is to say: prepare to have your normalcy bias pulled out from under you.

Which is why if I am going to sell any of my receivers, I am looking to do it while the iron is still hot......because it's not going to stay this hot very much longer.
 
I disagree with most of it. No one who is changing their spending habits because gas is a few bucks more to fill up was ever buying gear for thousands of dollars. These were the people buying cheap at thrifts or garage sales and then flipping it for thousands. The deep pocket buyers will still be there. Most sales of gear are on the cheap end to begin with. For every $1500 9090 sale, there are probably 10 that sell for a few hundred or less outside of eBay.
 
You may not agree, but then you'll probably end up being surprised. A few extra bucks on gas? The cumulative effect of price increases on fuel, utility bills, food, and insurance (just for starters) has caused typical household expenditures to go up anywhere from a few to several hundred dollars a month more already, which equals many thousands more in a year, and prices are not done increasing, by any means. This isn't just spare change being eaten away.

New and used cars are up huge, as are major applicances and things as mundane as a new roof. All the above are more important for those who need them, than is having a vintage receiver in the living room. I'm not speaking of those living paycheck to paycheck here, but of solidly middle class types who normally had some playtoy money to blow on nice things. The money for all those now much more costly items above has to come from somewhere, and the easiest (and therefore first) thing to get hit is discretionary spending.

$3-4K on a receiver (or whatever) is purely discretionary unless one has the kind of money already socked away that can be spent without any concern for running short, or it is just being added to the credit card balance that gets minimum payments. I don't expect sales to stop instantaneously, the effect will be more of of a ramp downard. How pronounced it is will be determined by the amount of economic pain being felt, and we are still in the opening stages of that. 6 months or a year down the road is likely to look quite a bit different, and not in a good way.

It's evident many people have already curtailed their spending on non-essentials. Some percentage of those undoubtedly would've been buyers of vintage gear except for the increases in other costs taking up the slack that would have permitted such purchases prior to the present difficulties. I can't quantify a hard number on that, but it is happening.
 
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There is no argument that the paycheck to paycheck crowd isn't going to buy as much fun stuff as they used to, but those people never paid the "market" prices for gear anyway because they couldn't afford it before this downturn to begin with. The people that could afford a $1500 vintage receiver can and will still do so. No one making 200k a year is suddenly going to give up their lifestyle because they have to spend a few hundred extra on the essentials every month. People who are used to a certain lifestyle don't just start slumming it because gas is expensive.
 
Which is why if I am going to sell any of my receivers, I am looking to do it while the iron is still hot......because it's not going to stay this hot very much longer.
I've got a couple of turntables I'm planning to sell - makes me wonder if the time to act is sooner than later?
 
There is no argument that the paycheck to paycheck crowd isn't going to buy as much fun stuff as they used to, but those people never paid the "market" prices for gear anyway because they couldn't afford it before this downturn to begin with. The people that could afford a $1500 vintage receiver can and will still do so. No one making 200k a year is suddenly going to give up their lifestyle because they have to spend a few hundred extra on the essentials every month. People who are used to a certain lifestyle don't just start slumming it because gas is expensive.

A LOT of the people into "vintage" audio components are retired or semi-retired. I'm guessing that not many are raking in 200K/year.

The next generations don't really care about big, heavy, non portable vintage audio systems. They are all into music on their phones, streaming, etc. When our generation is no longer
around this "hobby" will likely almost completely dry up.

The upturn in prices for everything is most definitely going to affect the cost of vintage components. When revenue in remains the same but expenses rise dramatically, some things will have to be chopped and it won't be the necessities.
 
Spending 3-4K for one of these vintage pieces is one thing, keeping it going for another 40-50 years would be my concern. Finding someone to service/repair it in 20 years might cost as much as the initial purchase. Then it may just become a visual piece instead of an audio piece. That will be the detriment to vintage gear as much as anything, IMO.
 
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Factoring in the cost of repair and parts to do so, a full recap was already real money to get done. Many of the specialty transistors used in pre and especially output stages are not inconsequential in price. The cost of those components keeps going up, and presently inventories are not in good shape, with no real indication of improvement in the offing. Now add all that to the price paid for an unrestored piece of gear, and consider what the real outlay to own one is.

Finding a good tech is tough, backlogs to get something worked on are many months long, and a lot of techs presently doing this work are retired guys who learned the craft back 20-40 years ago. There are not nearly enough skilled techs (versus parts swappers who plug and pray) who can truly troubleshoot coming up to sustain the vintage hobby at its present level of popularity.

Remember when comic book characters were the domain of socially awkward boys? Then marvel did some blockbuster movies and all the popular high school girls started gushing over the comic book heros and describing themselves as nerds. That was a fad borne out of "nornal" people appropriating what was largely a nerdy pursuit for their own.

Much the same has happened with old stereos. I figure in the future vintage gear will return to being a very niche hobby, as it was when I first got heavily into it in 1996. Original owners were still dumping it in droves back then for AV receivers and early home theatre setups. The hard core adherents will keep it alive, the casual dabblers will fall away as the costs and challenges of keeping old stuff working increase beyond their level of tolerance for such aggravation, and what is popular and styish morphs into something else.

As I already said, trends are fickle. Old hifi was (and still is) a pursuit of serious music lovers and electronics nerds. It was then co-opted by the masses because it managed to become perceived as stylish to use and display this type of gear in one's home, alongside the mid-century design craze. Eventually another bright, shiny object will come along that captures the attention of those who drove the market to its present heights and *poof* vintage hifi will again be perceived as "that old junk" that weird guys like me still insist on using even though it is hopelessly outdated. Maybe the next big trend will be avocado green kitchen appliances or art glass ashtrays. Who really knows?
 
Almost every piece of gear I've sold in the past few years has gone to someone under 40. Most knew what they were doing and getting into. I'm also under 40. There will be no loss of interest with younger generations for a good while longer.
 
Almost every piece of gear I've sold in the past few years has gone to someone under 40. Most knew what they were doing and getting into. I'm also under 40. There will be no loss of interest with younger generations for a good while longer.
That has been my experience. I work with and around 18-35 yrs olds everyday. This old guy is not a naysayer with only a preconceived notions to guide me ;)
 
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