Taketheflame
Super Member
Count me in as a 30-something into all this old gear- and I largely have AK to thank for such!
Have you seen Ebay? Would you pay $3000 - 4000 for a Sansui 9090db?
- Thread starter jamiecantar
- Start date
I disagree about the market staying like this much longer. I have been collecting for over 10 years, not steady but just keeping an eye on things and picking up a piece here and there. Prices have been going up steadily non stop with a few large spikes along the way. The thing is the prices dont seem to go back down. If we come into a recession the prices might go down but only because people are spending less money on things like this and when the recession is over prices will go back to their previous all time highs. Of course this is speculation but I wouldn’t go scaring people to sell their stuff.
dr*audio
Fish fingers and custard!
I don't think there is anything wrong with someone paying a lot of money for something they really want. It's an emotional decision, not a rational one.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want a 9090dB if someone gave it to me free. Why? Because I have worked on so many of them and they have so many problems that have to be fixed in order to make them reliable. 60 feed thrus on the Dolby board that have to be repaired, for one. When you have everything done, I still don't think they sound as nice as an Eight Deluxe or G-8000. I don't even like the way they look.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want a 9090dB if someone gave it to me free. Why? Because I have worked on so many of them and they have so many problems that have to be fixed in order to make them reliable. 60 feed thrus on the Dolby board that have to be repaired, for one. When you have everything done, I still don't think they sound as nice as an Eight Deluxe or G-8000. I don't even like the way they look.
Adamo0926
Active Member
I do like how the 9090 looks. I have 4 receivers but have since gone to separates. Will probably sell a few of the receivers and keep one. I have a Pioneer SX-850, Yamaha CR-2020 (which is already listed), Marantz 2252B and a Sansui Eight. If I keep one it would be between the 2252B and the Eight. I would lean toward the Eight because it seems to sound great with any speaker I have hooked it up to. It was the only one of my receivers that sounded really good with my Thiel CS2 speakers. Plus it's the hardest to find, especially in the condition mine is in. Always wanted to compare it the Deluxe. A small majority think the Deluxe sounds a tiny bit better but not significantly. But they think the build quality of the Eight is better and that they also did not cut corners cosmetically with the Eight either as it has metal/machined knobs, glass faceplate, etc.
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
I upvoted this, not b/c I agree with all of it, but b/c it's the god honest truth from the poster's point of view, which also takes a brass pair to express out-loud. I can see how one can get fed up with theses working on so many, and they certainly have problems. At the level of prices discussed, it is an emotional decision, so it becomes personal and I'm beyond judgment on that.
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
Much of my vintage gear was acquired with me being well over my 40's with most being a compensation for the times I was younger and couldn't afford my dream stereo. Right now is the point, price wise, which pulls me back to square one again. I'm lucky to had been able to fulfill my vintage dreams earlier in my life. I don't see how I could do it again given the price associated with sought-after vintage gear these days.
Audio Fan
YT Channel - https://tinyurl.com/29zytwu9
And that is probably the same type of perspective of anyone that ever collected something early on when prices were low only for it to become an interest for many others and demand caused prices to rise. Muscle cars, motorcycles, video games, etc. etc. ALL went through the same cycle. Cheap in the beginning, then boom, prices take off and, eventually, they will fall. FYI, while this market is hot, there are still "barn finds" out there to be found in every category, not everything is bought/sold online.
These threads are so common, we really should pin one big one at the top so everyone can chime in periodically on their disbelief at the prices.
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
Yup, true, but the older you get before you retire, life teaches you the hard way that you've got way less time than money. Buying on-line is sooooo convenient...
Audio Fan
YT Channel - https://tinyurl.com/29zytwu9
Yes, very true, but for some of us collectors, like me, the hunt is a big part of the fun. I have no issue with anyone willing to pay for the convenience of buying online, that is exactly why the value of our hobby has increased over the years. The collectible market for anything would certainly not have skyrocketed without the convenience of online shopping, so I fully support it and anyone that prefers to spend more time listening, riding, reading or whatever else one loves to do with their hobbies. We spend the majority of our years working (most of us) to have the opportunity to spend our final years having fun - suum cuique (Latin: to each his own is beautiful)
Dr. Ears
Super Member
Snow, I totally agree as long as the sellers are not holding a gun and wearing a stocking mask!
Sorry to resurrect a months-old post. I missed it first time around, as I've only recently joined the wonderful Audiokarma community. And I'll offer another view, that no one has mentioned here.
I recently signed up because I bought my first-ever classic receiver: I picked up a Pioneer SX-750 on eBay. Paid about $460 for it including the fairly expensive shipping. And while some of you may consider me stunningly foolish for doing that, it was worth every freaking penny! It looks great and sounds fantastic--and I can improve both, even though they're already quite good, by putting some new veneer on it (the old vinyl is still in very good condition) and at least recapping it and giving it a clean, although right now it doesn't seem to need much of either. I'm 60, but I hang out with considerably younger folks (I teach a bit, and do a lot of photography, particularly music and sports), so I know a bit about what they're thinking and doing.
I bought my Pioneer not out of just nostalgia--I never had a system like this before, couldn't afford it, so I've generally always listened to music on cheap crap, so I'm not reliving an experience I had in my youth. I just have always admired the look and sound of the old Pioneers (and some other systems) of friends who could afford good audio gear. But even though my new (to me) receiver is over 40 years old, it's still a very useful part of the 21st Century, as I'll get to shortly.
As I mentioned, I'm a photographer. I do obviously shoot most things, particularly if it pays, or moves, or has to be shot in tough light, digitally. And that's great. But I started off in the days of film photography. And I still love to shoot film. When I started, I used a Minolta, and a battered old Nikon F4 (great camera, but it was pretty worn when I got it). Eventually, I became able to afford "better" cameras, like a Leica (I have two), a Rolleiflex, a Hasselblad (got three of those!), a Mamiya RZ67, and some large format stuff.
I was lucky I bought all that before the prices on *those* things started skyrocketing. I could easily sell most of my camera gear now for two and approaching three times what I paid for it. If I hang on to it longer, it'll go up even more--I don't see the prices on that stuff coming down any time soon. And I don't see the prices on a lot of classic receivers dropping soon, either, although I think you'll still often be able to find bargains on that, by diligent searching, than you will on old camera gear.
Why are prices surging, and going to *remain* high on classic cameras and receivers? Well, several factors, and these apply to both camera and audio gear:
1. There is a constantly diminishing supply. Nobody is making these anymore, and losses from lack of new parts, house fires & accidents, stuff getting tossed out when people die cos their relatives have no idea what it's worth and not wanting to be bothered, etc., mean they are slowly becoming rarer and rarer.
2. The remaining ones, in many cases, can be repaired, and remain in use--and many people, like me, kind of like the idea that some of our devices have histories different from ours. Someone owned them before us and enjoyed them, we will get great use out of them, and if we care for them properly, they will carry on being useful and bringing joy after we are dead. Most camera techs who service film cameras are getting all the work they can take on (and making very good livings), and I'm seeing more and more young people wanting to learn how to work on cameras--something similar is going on, from what I can see here, with old receivers. The idea we might buy a camera/receiver and it be ours *for life*, and be passed on to someone else later if we look after it responsibly, carries value.
3. Many older devices like these are "better" than some modern gear simply because what they put out gives you a look/sound/feel that cannot be emulated completely by "modern" devices, and which people find appealing in its own right. I don't personally know many audio geeks (no offense intended; I'm definitely a camera geek) because of the circle of people I move in. But I know *loads* of young photographers who've found they really like the aesthetic, the process, and the output from film photography, and so now *they* are buying up old cameras, which drives up prices. And these aren't just "hipsters." My most recent studio was in West Orlando, which is kind of the "hood," and I encountered many young black photographers, most from less privileged backgrounds, who are committed to shooting film despite the extra expense. And I spent 11 years before that shooting in London--I knew loads of young non-hipster photographers there, too, who shot mostly or exclusively film whenever they could, many of them whose work was getting published; it gave them *artistically* the look they were after. The "warm" and "musical" sounds of many vintage receivers are quite desirable, and not just for nostalgic reasons. And, given the next point, lots of people (including many younger people) are learning about and then competing for these items, driving up prices.
4. The internet. Camera prices are significantly driven by YouTubers and other "influencers" (aaargh, I hate that word) with huge followings who extoll the virtues of certain cameras, making them very desirable and pushing up prices. I don't think quite the same thing is happening with audio gear, *but* you *can* find out anything practically you want to know just by sitting at a keyboard. I made the decision which receiver I wanted not by stumbling across it at Goodwill or a flea market/garage sale (who has time to do all that nowadays??), but by researching it. I settled on the SX-750 because I learned it had the combination of sound, looks, features, power, dependability, repairability and affordability that I wanted. I found all that out courtesy of the lovely folks at Audiokarma and elsewhere. Then, once I made my decision, I could have waited around forever to actually find a good one in my area, which would have been cheaper certainly. But hell, I'm getting old! And eBay is right there.
So instead of going on dozens of fruitless quests and checking out units of dubious condition, functionality, and provenance, I could look for one from a knowledgeable seller, in the condition I wanted and at a price I was *willing* to pay. And my purchase would be covered by PayPal's buyer protections, something not available on a flea market find. (The thing about buying on eBay that makes it even more expensive is the shipping charges and taxes; the actual bid price on my receiver was only about $350, which I considered quite reasonable given current prices and the quality of what I got; shipping on this heavy beast--the seller went out of his way to pack it securely--and taxes added on almost another $100 to the total, so I can't really be mad at the seller for those--he only pocketed a bit over $300 after eBay fees.)
5. The ability to use these great old devices with modern tech. I develop and scan my own film (including color, when I've got my JOBO unit out of storage), but most photographers I know--particularly the younger ones--just send their film out for developing and scanning. And when they get it back a week later, they can push it out there by posting it on Instagram, e-mailing it to art directors/editors, or whatever. If you've got a big IG following, waaaaay more people will see your work nowadays than back in the olden times where you had to produce prints, and then somehow get them in front of your audience. My old Hasselblad film gear can be used with a digital back--and in fact, that's how I did most of my studio work. I could shoot something with the amazing old Zeiss lenses for that camera, and then deliver it to my customers or post it online almost instantly. So I got the enjoyment of using a fantastically good old camera, with its brilliant, huge viewfinder and more precise focusing, but I could output it in a 21st-Century way. And because the sensor on the ancient (2004 vintage) digital back I was using was sooo much larger physically than modern DSLRs/mirrorless cameras, I could routinely kill the quality of most images produced by the latest Canon/Sony/Nikon stuff--the images have a very filmic feel to them, which is different from what you get with the latest technological wonders.
In the same way, you can use classic receivers *with* modern ways of listening to music. For example, I use a Mac Mini as a video and music server. I've got the sound output of the Mac connected to one of the tape inputs on my SX-750 (I use my TV as the monitor). So I can play my entire MP3 music library through it, I can stream anything I want through it (right now, I'm listening to BBC 6 Music online), and I can use it as my sound source when streaming movies, too. I just got back from a visit to a friend in Atlanta; he's got an old blue-faced Marantz, and he has plugged into it a Bluetooth device that allows him to stream anything he wants from his phone or laptop directly to it. So we're using modern electronics, but the music sounds *so* much louder and *better* played through a vintage receiver and proper speakers than it ever could the ways we'd normally listen to it with those devices.
6. Receivers are good entry points. Yes, as many people on this thread alone have mentioned, you can actually get *better* sound from separates, and more cheaply in many cases. But that's a step beyond what most people are ready to take when they first get into the field. A receiver combines everything you need in a form that's simple enough to understand and get to using quickly. It's kind of the same thing in photography--you'll get better quality, by far, from large format gear. But that hasn't shot up in price in the same way that lots of 35mm and medium format gear has, simply because it's *too* complex and intimidating (even though the cameras themselves are quite simple) for most people to deal with. While loading a roll of film into a 35mm/MF camera is easy, and many of those cameras take care, in a rudimentary way at least, of some of the thinking process with built-in meters, aperture priority, autofocus, etc.
TL: DR - Good vintage receivers, just like classic cameras, are rapidly increasing in price for reasons beyond simple seller's greed, and they probably will continue to do so rather than dropping any time soon.
I recently signed up because I bought my first-ever classic receiver: I picked up a Pioneer SX-750 on eBay. Paid about $460 for it including the fairly expensive shipping. And while some of you may consider me stunningly foolish for doing that, it was worth every freaking penny! It looks great and sounds fantastic--and I can improve both, even though they're already quite good, by putting some new veneer on it (the old vinyl is still in very good condition) and at least recapping it and giving it a clean, although right now it doesn't seem to need much of either. I'm 60, but I hang out with considerably younger folks (I teach a bit, and do a lot of photography, particularly music and sports), so I know a bit about what they're thinking and doing.
I bought my Pioneer not out of just nostalgia--I never had a system like this before, couldn't afford it, so I've generally always listened to music on cheap crap, so I'm not reliving an experience I had in my youth. I just have always admired the look and sound of the old Pioneers (and some other systems) of friends who could afford good audio gear. But even though my new (to me) receiver is over 40 years old, it's still a very useful part of the 21st Century, as I'll get to shortly.
As I mentioned, I'm a photographer. I do obviously shoot most things, particularly if it pays, or moves, or has to be shot in tough light, digitally. And that's great. But I started off in the days of film photography. And I still love to shoot film. When I started, I used a Minolta, and a battered old Nikon F4 (great camera, but it was pretty worn when I got it). Eventually, I became able to afford "better" cameras, like a Leica (I have two), a Rolleiflex, a Hasselblad (got three of those!), a Mamiya RZ67, and some large format stuff.
I was lucky I bought all that before the prices on *those* things started skyrocketing. I could easily sell most of my camera gear now for two and approaching three times what I paid for it. If I hang on to it longer, it'll go up even more--I don't see the prices on that stuff coming down any time soon. And I don't see the prices on a lot of classic receivers dropping soon, either, although I think you'll still often be able to find bargains on that, by diligent searching, than you will on old camera gear.
Why are prices surging, and going to *remain* high on classic cameras and receivers? Well, several factors, and these apply to both camera and audio gear:
1. There is a constantly diminishing supply. Nobody is making these anymore, and losses from lack of new parts, house fires & accidents, stuff getting tossed out when people die cos their relatives have no idea what it's worth and not wanting to be bothered, etc., mean they are slowly becoming rarer and rarer.
2. The remaining ones, in many cases, can be repaired, and remain in use--and many people, like me, kind of like the idea that some of our devices have histories different from ours. Someone owned them before us and enjoyed them, we will get great use out of them, and if we care for them properly, they will carry on being useful and bringing joy after we are dead. Most camera techs who service film cameras are getting all the work they can take on (and making very good livings), and I'm seeing more and more young people wanting to learn how to work on cameras--something similar is going on, from what I can see here, with old receivers. The idea we might buy a camera/receiver and it be ours *for life*, and be passed on to someone else later if we look after it responsibly, carries value.
3. Many older devices like these are "better" than some modern gear simply because what they put out gives you a look/sound/feel that cannot be emulated completely by "modern" devices, and which people find appealing in its own right. I don't personally know many audio geeks (no offense intended; I'm definitely a camera geek) because of the circle of people I move in. But I know *loads* of young photographers who've found they really like the aesthetic, the process, and the output from film photography, and so now *they* are buying up old cameras, which drives up prices. And these aren't just "hipsters." My most recent studio was in West Orlando, which is kind of the "hood," and I encountered many young black photographers, most from less privileged backgrounds, who are committed to shooting film despite the extra expense. And I spent 11 years before that shooting in London--I knew loads of young non-hipster photographers there, too, who shot mostly or exclusively film whenever they could, many of them whose work was getting published; it gave them *artistically* the look they were after. The "warm" and "musical" sounds of many vintage receivers are quite desirable, and not just for nostalgic reasons. And, given the next point, lots of people (including many younger people) are learning about and then competing for these items, driving up prices.
4. The internet. Camera prices are significantly driven by YouTubers and other "influencers" (aaargh, I hate that word) with huge followings who extoll the virtues of certain cameras, making them very desirable and pushing up prices. I don't think quite the same thing is happening with audio gear, *but* you *can* find out anything practically you want to know just by sitting at a keyboard. I made the decision which receiver I wanted not by stumbling across it at Goodwill or a flea market/garage sale (who has time to do all that nowadays??), but by researching it. I settled on the SX-750 because I learned it had the combination of sound, looks, features, power, dependability, repairability and affordability that I wanted. I found all that out courtesy of the lovely folks at Audiokarma and elsewhere. Then, once I made my decision, I could have waited around forever to actually find a good one in my area, which would have been cheaper certainly. But hell, I'm getting old! And eBay is right there.
So instead of going on dozens of fruitless quests and checking out units of dubious condition, functionality, and provenance, I could look for one from a knowledgeable seller, in the condition I wanted and at a price I was *willing* to pay. And my purchase would be covered by PayPal's buyer protections, something not available on a flea market find. (The thing about buying on eBay that makes it even more expensive is the shipping charges and taxes; the actual bid price on my receiver was only about $350, which I considered quite reasonable given current prices and the quality of what I got; shipping on this heavy beast--the seller went out of his way to pack it securely--and taxes added on almost another $100 to the total, so I can't really be mad at the seller for those--he only pocketed a bit over $300 after eBay fees.)
5. The ability to use these great old devices with modern tech. I develop and scan my own film (including color, when I've got my JOBO unit out of storage), but most photographers I know--particularly the younger ones--just send their film out for developing and scanning. And when they get it back a week later, they can push it out there by posting it on Instagram, e-mailing it to art directors/editors, or whatever. If you've got a big IG following, waaaaay more people will see your work nowadays than back in the olden times where you had to produce prints, and then somehow get them in front of your audience. My old Hasselblad film gear can be used with a digital back--and in fact, that's how I did most of my studio work. I could shoot something with the amazing old Zeiss lenses for that camera, and then deliver it to my customers or post it online almost instantly. So I got the enjoyment of using a fantastically good old camera, with its brilliant, huge viewfinder and more precise focusing, but I could output it in a 21st-Century way. And because the sensor on the ancient (2004 vintage) digital back I was using was sooo much larger physically than modern DSLRs/mirrorless cameras, I could routinely kill the quality of most images produced by the latest Canon/Sony/Nikon stuff--the images have a very filmic feel to them, which is different from what you get with the latest technological wonders.
In the same way, you can use classic receivers *with* modern ways of listening to music. For example, I use a Mac Mini as a video and music server. I've got the sound output of the Mac connected to one of the tape inputs on my SX-750 (I use my TV as the monitor). So I can play my entire MP3 music library through it, I can stream anything I want through it (right now, I'm listening to BBC 6 Music online), and I can use it as my sound source when streaming movies, too. I just got back from a visit to a friend in Atlanta; he's got an old blue-faced Marantz, and he has plugged into it a Bluetooth device that allows him to stream anything he wants from his phone or laptop directly to it. So we're using modern electronics, but the music sounds *so* much louder and *better* played through a vintage receiver and proper speakers than it ever could the ways we'd normally listen to it with those devices.
6. Receivers are good entry points. Yes, as many people on this thread alone have mentioned, you can actually get *better* sound from separates, and more cheaply in many cases. But that's a step beyond what most people are ready to take when they first get into the field. A receiver combines everything you need in a form that's simple enough to understand and get to using quickly. It's kind of the same thing in photography--you'll get better quality, by far, from large format gear. But that hasn't shot up in price in the same way that lots of 35mm and medium format gear has, simply because it's *too* complex and intimidating (even though the cameras themselves are quite simple) for most people to deal with. While loading a roll of film into a 35mm/MF camera is easy, and many of those cameras take care, in a rudimentary way at least, of some of the thinking process with built-in meters, aperture priority, autofocus, etc.
TL: DR - Good vintage receivers, just like classic cameras, are rapidly increasing in price for reasons beyond simple seller's greed, and they probably will continue to do so rather than dropping any time soon.
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Nice. Put it up on eBay. If someone offers you/bids more than $75, it's worth more than that. If no one does, it's worth less than that. Personally, I *wouldn't* pay that much for it, it's not the kind of thing I'm looking for, but someone else might be longing for that model, and willing to pay what they have to to get it.
That's how the market works.
Taketheflame
Super Member
I totally assumed that was an 80's model before actually looking it up (because I was about to comment that some 80's gear is rather underrated/undervalued).
Looks like a few recently sold examples from the big auction site fell in the $110-130 range. I smell an extreme bargain by 1970's gear standards based on prices/specs.
E2
Addicted Member
I had the regular 9090 and don't remotely get the fascination with these units. I sold mine for under $300 12 years ago, and at that price okay but more than double, triple and beyond, emotional is the appropriate word.
I guess I should have held onto everything......
There are a few units from the last 15 years I would pay fair market for that are great for a lot less than 3K. I have my eye on Denon, Parasound, Musical Fidelity to name a few.
Some modern units have eye appeal but many don't have the eye appeal of vintage receivers and that is definitely what is driving this.
E2
Addicted Member
Check from the 80's up. There are units under $500 that will have superior sound quality over 70's receivers.
And they will be dead quite. No background hiss of any kind.
AudioAvarice
Super Member
I would have thought receivers would put off those first buying vintage audio, as there is potentially more to go wrong, and being more difficult/expensive to get repaired ? I think a decent integrated amp would probably be the 'best' start, and with more options, and a generally better price point.
Screw the naysayers ! I think you picked a classic and sounds like you picked what you like that’s what’s what’s important ! I think you got a decent deal I see them on Craigslist between $400 -500 with out the xtra cost of shipping , and when and if your ready to move up the food chain you should be able to recoup you investment but if your content it will last a long time , enjoy !
E2
Addicted Member
I have a NAD that has a superb Tuner. 7140.
What the hell is on terrestrial Radio.
I rarely listen to radio. NPR, and the Classical Radio Station in the car.
Since I cycle often I am not in the car the much....(High Heat, and Humidity, Ice and/or Snow are the only things keeping me off the bike)