How bad is this power supply ringing?

[dowto1000]

I can't see the logic behind using those two references as some kind of support for "truth" in these disussions. There is no information at all in either one.

No information you say ??? There was lots of information from both the 2016 Stereophile reviews. Look at what was said about the room and its sound, and its people running the show. The logic is that Dennis Fraker has been an audio friend of mine, and a mentor to me, for 30 years, and the technologies I am suggesting as being audibly superior sounding ARE actually being experienced and heard by some people at RMAFs - who actually LISTEN to his amp.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Have a wonderful day, I am, with the stock market today, so far !!

Dowto1000

 

[FlaCharlie]

You should have had this conversation with me a dozen years ago, privately, instead of harboring feelings of ill will !!

Jeff - I have no feelings of ill will towards you. But I have been perplexed about your relentless promotion of parts you had not actually used yourself. This went way beyond someone saying that, based on published specs, these parts might be a good choice.

Given that experience, I felt it was appropriate to alert others on this forum, most of whom are unaware of your history on other forums, not to buy into everything you claim.

I sincerely hope that you are able to realize that the culture of AK is quite different from that of AA, and that you will change your approach to posts here accordingly. The moderators at AA put up with your style for many years and the DIY forum took a decidedly distasteful turn. Not that it was all your fault, but I never noticed anyone else there besides you and Dennis who made it their mission in life to repeatedly proclaim that their theories and methods were superior to all others.

Please take some time to read this forum. There are some DIY builders here but most are not. Those that are post about their builds but they do not push any particular theories or build philosophy over and over, ad nauseum, as you have done for years now. Nor do they make wild claims about the superiority of their designs.

I haven't spent much time on Hi Fi Haven, but I read one of your very first threads there, about an amp you designed that you claimed was better than 99.9% of the other amps out there. You even acknowledged that by making such a statement that "I have just ALIENATED myself to ANYONE who reads my post . . ." Apparently that is one of your goals.

"I think I will name it simply "Jeff's High Performance SET Amp". Never before has a total SET amp design, that I find suitable, ever been made public on the WWW."

This claim was made despite the fact that you had not actually built the amp yet!

The very first response to your initial post on that thread suggested that your style was not suited for their forum. Apparently they are not as patient as AA because it took them, what was it, only 7 or 8 months to boot you out.

That thread is actually quite a wild ride . . . (the very next day!) you reject your initial design due to some major technical flaws you overlooked, and a day later promoted another design which, about a month later, you also rejected and started promoting a third design. What a hoot!

I would humbly suggest that you try to adapt to the culture here. I'm not sure if you are capable of such a shift in your approach, though.

One of the administrators at Hi Fi Haven gave you some good advice in that same thread . . . "Jeff . . . PLEASE just offer the schematic and state that this is what you like to listen to. By coming on so strong, you drive people away from even considering your point of view. This is not the way to win friends and influence people."

Obviously, you didn't follow his advice and now you've landed here at AK. I actually welcome your presence and I hope you are able to adapt to the culture here.

But, if you insist on continuing to preach about theories and build philosophies, I believe there are better venues for such an approach. DIY Audio seems to me to be much more technically oriented and it IS a venue at which theories and such are common subjects of discussion. I've gotten some good advice there too but much of the discussion is way over my head. I suspect you don't post there, not so much because you know they would eat you and your theories for breakfast, but mainly because your ability to influence less knowledgeable members would be diminished.

I apologize for taking this thread off on such a tangent.

As to why those Triad chokes buzz, I guess some manufacturer's specs are more accurate than others. And, thanks Jeff, for suggesting some alternatives. If you actually use them in an amp at some point, please post your impressions and keep us informed as to how much current they can take before they buzz.

 

[cozido512]

DIY Audio seems to me to be much more technically oriented and it IS a venue at which theories and such are common subjects of discussion.

Jeff Medwin aka drlowmu has been banned from diyAudio for quite some time, that should come as no surprise to anyone that had the misfortune of reading his posts/rants. Ditto for the “guru” Dennis...

 

[dowto1000]

Thanks for responding FlaCharlie.

Does it ever occur to people, that I don't change my tune ( about two stage DC SETs, and LSES supplies ) because, in all my experience, I continuously believe this offers the highest performance possible, of any tube amp, for an efficient load. People should notice my steadfastness, and LISTEN for themselves to this type of circuit, well executed.

I offer it as a GIFT, free, to any and all who sincerely are looking for the highest audio performance.

I have experience, in late 1944, my Mother was nursing me to the music played by our family's ALTEC 604 duplex, the very first 604 model ever made. When the new 604B came out, my Dad gave us " stereo " at home. It is 2018, and I use VOTT A7-800s in my living room.

In about 1981 or 1982, my first audio mentor ( Robert W. Fulton ) told me about the necessity of all chokes in a 2A3 type amp, needing to be " 20 Ohms or less, if I can find them ". In the 1990s, my audio buddy's ( Dennis Fraker ) design of his LSES power supply filter melded right in with what Mr. Fulton told me.

EEs on A.A, John Swenson, and John L. Hasquin, backed up the validity superbly in EE terms. The audiophile Dean of EE at University of Alabama, also reinforced the un-typical design direction. What people hear, recent years, at RMAF shows, and the reviews my buddy Dennis gets, also reinforces my enthusiasm, and desire to share it with interested, good, open minded people.

One needs to hear it, to fully appreciate it, understand it. The Tre's, Pac Protectors, Gussers and Triode Kingdoms of the world - never have heard one note played back this way !! If people took the time to listen, and were honest, there would be no condescension, what-so-ever.

Have a great day, I will, if the S and P 500 can close below 2700 on this last hour of trading. Don't know if it will. Looks shakey to do so.

Dowto1000

 

[dowto1000]

Jeff Medwin aka drlowmu has been banned from diyAudio for quite some time, that should come as no surprise to anyone that had the misfortune of reading his posts/rants. Ditto for the “guru” Dennis...

Hi Cozido,

If you had built what I discuss, or gone to a couple of RMAFs in Denver to hear Dennis' amps and speakers, I sure would put a LOT of credence in what you posted.

You not-too-kind post deserves my rebuttal.

My intuition tells me, you sit at home, read Forums, and do not build anything, let alone what I discuss, and you most likely never ever took the time to hear Dennis' tube amps.

You are commenting on what you read, on a Forum, and that is just your opinion, which you are entitled to have. I just want to point out to anyone reading your post, you likely have never heard what I have been discussing .

Could it be, that my mentor Dennis, ( who got such a glowing review from Sterophile Magazine ), reflects on your comments and post as being 100% off base, 100% incorrect?

I think so !!

HOW did Dennis get those reviews?? He doesn't advertise in Stereophile, so there is no possible financial interest to review his products, by any magazine. Could he have earned the reviews due to his hard work, and his merit, and the final resultant sound, something which likely you have never ever experienced ??

The term you chose to use, " misfortune", IMHO, applies not to me, but wholly to you....by you never ever directly hearing his circuits, his executions.

If you can make it to Denver RMAF Oct 5-7th this year, you are welcome to stop in and listen. Its a friendly room. He will be spinning lotsa L.Ps. There will be about 250 exhibitors, and Dennis ' result is typically, ( but not every year ) in my opinion, easily performing within the top 5%.

Your post has pulled this Thread way off-track. The original poster's B+ supply has a smooth, very slow response, as "I" see it in PSUD, and it doesn't ring !!

Best wishes to and for you.

Dowto1000

 

[Selmerdave]

Hi Cozido,

If you had built what I discuss, or gone to a couple of RMAFs in Denver to hear Dennis' amps and speakers, I sure would put a LOT of credence in what you posted.

You not-too-kind post deserves my rebuttal.

My intuition tells me, you sit at home, read Forums, and do not build anything, let alone what I discuss, and you most likely never ever took the time to hear Dennis' tube amps.

You are commenting on what you read, on a Forum, and that is just your opinion, which you are entitled to have. I just want to point out to anyone reading your post, you likely have never heard what I have been discussing - over many years of DIY building tube amps.

Could it be, that my mentor Dennis, ( who got such a glowing review from Sterophile Magazine ), reflects on your comments and post as being 100% off base, 100% incorrect?

I think so !!

HOW would Dennis get those reviews?? He doesn't advertise in Stereophile, so there is no possible financial interest to review his products, by any magazine. Could he have earned the reviews due to his hard work, and his merit, and the final resultant sound, something which likely you have never ever experienced ??

The term you chose to use, " misfortune", in truth, IMHO, applies not to me, but wholly to you....by you never ever directly hearing his circuits, his executions.

If you can make it to Denver RMAF Oct 5-7th this year, you are welcome to stop in and listen. Its a friendly room. He will be spinning lotsa L.Ps. There will be about 250 exhibitors, and Dennis ' result is typically, ( but not every year ) in my opinion, easily performing within the top 5%.

Your post has pulled this Thread way off-track. The original poster's B+ supply has a smooth, very slow response, as "I" see it in PSUD, and it doesn't ring !!

Best wishes to and for you.

Dowto1000

This pretty much borders on advertising. Moderators?

 

[Tubeglowpio]

Thanks for responding FlaCharlie.

Does it ever occur to people, that I don't change my tune ( about two stage DC SETs, and LSES supplies ) because, in all my experience, I continuously believe this offers the highest performance possible, of any tube amp, for an efficient load. People should notice my steadfastness, and LISTEN for themselves to this type of circuit, well executed.

I offer it as a GIFT, free, to any and all who sincerely are looking for the highest audio performance.

I have experience, in late 1944, my Mother was nursing me to the music played by our family's ALTEC 604 duplex, the very first 604 ever made. When the new 604B came out, my Dad gave us " stereo " at home. It is 2018, and I use VOTT A7-800s in my living room.

In about 1981 or 1982, my first audio mentor ( Robert W. Fulton ) told me about the necessity of all chokes in a 2A3 type amp, needing to be " 20 Ohms or less, if I can find them ". In the 1990s, my audio buddy's ( Dennis Fraker ) design of his LSES power supply filter melded right in with what Mr. Fulton told me. EEs on A.A, John Swenson, and John L. Hasquin, backed up the validity superbly in EE terms. The audiophile Dean of EE at University of Alabama, also reinforced the un-typical design direction. What people hear, recent years, at RMAF shows, and the reviews my Buddy Dennis gets, also reinforces my enthusiasm, and desire to share it with interested, good, open minded people.

One needs to hear it, to fully appreciate it, understand it. The Tre's, Pac Protector, Gussers and Triode Kingdoms of the world - never have heard one note played back this way !! If people took the time to listen, and were honest, there would be no condescension, what-so-ever.

Have a great day, I will, if the S and P 500 can close below 2700 on this last hour of trading. Don't know if it will. Looks shakey to do so.

Dowto1000

Could you PM me the 2a3 schematic or at least the power supply. I would like to study it and then hear it for my self. As far as the ringing goes I'm going to be wiring it up this weekend and will first try it with my slow ring free design then will try the other one i designed that shows slight ring but faster response. It looks like the original one was designed to be slow because it is often built with small output transformers from console amps there for the lower inductance on the primary side plays a role in the response as well.

 

[Brice]

Why slow is bad in that case?

That means the PS is keeping up the voltage under current demand and it is a good property.

You wan't want it to sag at all remember, and as pointed earlier, what makes it sag in the internal resistance of the PS itself, you want as lower as possible.

However, when the current demand decreases, you want the voltage to go back up to nominal level as fast as possible.

You can simulate this event with PSUII also by reversing the currents level in the stepped load.

 

[Tubeglowpio]

Why slow is bad in that case?

That means the PS is keeping up the voltage under current demand and it is a good property.

You wan't want it to sag at all remember, and as pointed earlier, what makes it sag in the internal resistance of the PS itself, you want as lower as possible.

However, when the current demand decreases, you want the voltage to go back up to nominal level as fast as possible.

You can simulate this event with PSUII also by reversing the currents level in the stepped load.

This is how I'm going to wire it up this weekend then, only thing I might change is the 200uf cap to a 100uf cap as that does make the voltage go back up almost twice as fast.

 

[Tubeglowpio]

 

[dowto1000]

Why slow is bad in that case?

That means the PS is keeping up the voltage under current demand and it is a good property.

You wan't want it to sag at all remember, and as pointed earlier, what makes it sag in the internal resistance of the PS itself, you want as lower as possible.

However, when the current demand decreases, you want the voltage to go back up to nominal level as fast as possible.

You can simulate this event with PSUII also by reversing the currents level in the stepped load.

Hi Brice,

The idea of a fast supply was pretty well technically covered by two EEs, about a decade ago on Audio Asylum : Messers John Swenson, and John L. Hasquin, who modeled and actually built and LISTENED to such a supply as I have proposed.

I have a compendium of EE Swenson's ground breaking posts on this subject. which will allow one to understand the idea behind this, which is indeed a different approach. If you, or anyone else, would like to email me, I will email you back a collection of Swenson's posts. Reach me at drlowmu@gmail.com, and no spam please. Happy to help. Both these EEs put forth compelling information.

Swenson, did his "own" version of what I had suggested, calling it a Flywheel Supply. I tried that, and went back to Dennis Fraker's " LSES " supply ( Low Stored Energy Supply ), and have been using LSES the last eight years, happily.

Oh, as to employing a stiff supply, as your post suggested - with large HY Chokes, and large caps, please look-up one post by EE John Hasquin on cap size. What follows is a longish URL, but it will lead you to one of John Hasquin's comments.

Read all of Swenson, which I will send anyone, to get an understanding.

Cut and paste this URL please, written by John L . Hasquin, EE ( JLH on AA ):

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=tubediy&n=118241&highlight=current+JLH&r=&search_url=/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=The+problem+with&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=JLH&date1=2007-03-07&date2=2007-0307&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=set


Best wishes, hope I can help, happy listening.

Dowto1000.

 

[Tubeglowpio]

If I split the chokes up again, I notice the current doesn't dip down much at all so I would think this would actually be good? What do you guys make of this?

 

[dowto1000]

View attachment 1201513

Hello TGP,

In my way of thinking, ( in other words, in my opinion ), and from years of doing 2A3 type power supplies, I see four different areas to improve upon, with what you propose to do :

1) A 5Y3 rectifier is a total WHIMP delivering maximum peak currents. Consider a 5U4GB. ( 5Y3 is 2.2 A. per plate VS: 5U4GB at 4.6 A. per plate ).

2) Consider to not use a "C" input filter, as the first element after the rectifier.

3) Learn to employ chokes 20 Ohms or less in DCR, in any tube amp, when high performance is sought.

4) Keep the amount of capacitance in any one spot, small, I'm always using 60 uF and less, after doing listening tests of this.

Why don't you contact me privately, and we can chat about design ideas. If you email me, drlowmu@gmail.com.

I will share with you my Cell number, and information for 2A3s.

Dowto1000

 

[Tubeglowpio]

Hello TGP,

In my way of thinking, ( in other words, in my opinion ), and from years of doing 2A3 type power supplies, I see four different areas to improve upon, with what you propose to do :

1) A 5Y3 rectifier is a total WHIMP delivering maximum peak currents. Consider a 5U4GB. ( 5Y3 is 2.2 A. per plate VS: 5U4GB at 4.6 A. per plate ).

2) Consider to not use a "C" input filter, as the first element after the rectifier.

3) Learn to employ chokes 20 Ohms or less in DCR, in any tube amp, when high performance is sought.

4) Keep the amount of capacitance in any one spot, small, I'm always using 60 uF and less, after doing listening tests of this.

Why don't you contact me privately, and we can chat about design ideas. If you email me, drlowmu@gmail.com.

I will share with you my Cell number, and information for 2A3s.

Dowto1000

Back story with this amp is that I'm building it for my dad and am trying to get it done this week for him. I'm using parts that I have on hand for this one so cant really switch out power transformer or chokes at this point. I ended up with the 5y3 because my heater winding is a 2 amp winding so 5u4 would draw about 3 amps. I am taking more steps though for my 2A3 which I'm in no rush.

 

[Tubeglowpio]

 

[dowto1000]

If I split the chokes up again, I notice the current doesn't dip down much at all so I would think this would actually be good? What do you guys make of this?View attachment 1201520

If you are constrained to those parts, use em !!

I would like to see you do a more realistic current step, besides 1 mA. How about amp at idle, and a 15% increase from idle, a step, at 4.1 seconds ?? I prefer that way of using PSUD, verses this 1 mA to 86 mA. step TGP. Consider that, the idle level TELLS you what the amp will idle at , useful to know !!! 1 mA. is ???????

Dowto1000

 

[Tubeglowpio]

If you are constrained to those parts, use em !!

I would like to see you do a more realistic current step, besides 1 mA. How about amp at idle, and a 15% increase from idle, a step, at 4.1 seconds ?? I prefer that way of using PSUD, verses this 1 mA to 86 mA. step TGP. Consider that, the idle level TELLS you what the amp will idle at , useful to know !!! 1 mA. is ???????

Dowto1000

Like this?

 

[kward]

Tubeglow, as I mentioned earlier if you've got both chokes already mounted, by all means use them. There is no ringing either way in your PS design. You've achieved that with the resistance in the chokes themselves and in the low-ish value of the first filter cap.

Not sure if this has been discussed or not yet, but an alternate you may want to consider for rectifier tube is the 5AR4. Filament current is within your limits and plate current is beefier than the 5Y3. But a 5Y3 will work.

When using PSUD to check if your power supply design rings or not it is really unimportant how much of a current step is simulated, as long as it's at least what the amp will see from idle to full power. If you want to investigate the properties of the ringing, then you need to be a little more careful in modeling the actual current differences.

From my vantage point you're good to go. Let us see your end result when this baby is complete!

 

[Tubeglowpio]

Tubeglow, as I mentioned earlier if you've got both chokes already mounted, by all means use them. There is no ringing either way in your PS design. You've achieved that with the resistance in the chokes themselves and in the low-ish value of the first filter cap.

Not sure if this has been discussed or not yet, but an alternate you may want to consider for rectifier tube is the 5AR4. Filament current is within your limits and plate current is beefier than the 5Y3. But a 5Y3 will work.

When using PSUD to check if your power supply design rings or not it is really unimportant how much of a current step is simulated, as long as it's at least what the amp will see from idle to full power. If you want to investigate the properties of the ringing, then you need to be a little more careful in modeling the actual current differences.

From my vantage point you're good to go. Let us see your end result when this baby is complete!

Thanks kward, I did consider using the 5AR4 but would need a dropping resistor to bring voltage down. When I originally designed the power supply I just aimed for the voltages and used a power supply transformer that I was originally going to use for a mono amp with a 5y3 tube I had. I then decided on using that transformer for this project since it had 115ma rating I figured it would be fine for a rh84 style amp. I'm in my shop soldering this baby up right now, will post pics when she is all done and lit up. Thanks again everyone! This has been one of my more interesting threads.

 

[satellite]

This has been one of my more interesting threads

An interesting read indeed, although much has been over my head.
Looking forward to the pics!