How does H-D stay relevant in a changing market?

[grillebilly]

It's a shame they remain stuck in a century old 45 degree V-twin paradigm.

I think that's what kept them afloat. If they had given up in the 70's they might of gone belly-up by 1980. V-Twins and for that matter V-6 and V-8 car engines cannot be balanced perfectly throughout its engine rotation, so the design "flaw" is always there. That doesn't keep people from buying them. Maybe HD could do different things to please the current market, no debate here. Abandoning the V would spell disaster for the brand.

 

[Pio1980]

Actually, that was a 60 degree motor designed by Porsche. The "Milwaukee Eight" remains as it was in 1911.

By comparison, my lawn tractor's V-twin is an inherently balanced 90 degree design. As is the motor on my bike. I confess I don't get the "designed in" NVH.

I think it has dynamic counter balance, like my Scout.

 

[E-Stat]

I think that's what kept them afloat. If they had given up in the 70's they might of gone belly-up by 1980.

Continued use of *brass era* technology? Don't forget that it was an OHC inline four from a Japanese manufacturer in 1969 that forever changed the rules.

V-Twins and for that matter V-6 and V-8 car engines cannot be balanced perfectly throughout its engine rotation, so the design "flaw" is always there.

There is a significant difference in vibration between 45 degree twins and a wide range of other configurations. I'm having difficulty thinking of anything worse in terms of primary balance or any other engine/industry that continues to use them outside of "classic motorcycles".

 

[grillebilly]

I think it has dynamic counter balance, like my Scout.

Is that done by separate balance shafts driven by the crank?

 

[E-Stat]

I think it has dynamic counter balance, like my Scout.

As do many other designs that begin with superior primary balance. The 90 degree V-4 in my Honda also has counter rotating balance shafts as the engine is bolted directly to the frame as a stressed member.

 

[grillebilly]

Continued use of *brass era* technology? Don't forget that it was an OHC inline four from a Japanese manufacturer in 1969 that forever changed the rules.


There is a significant difference in vibration between 45 degree twins and a wide range of other configurations. I'm having difficulty thinking of anything worse in terms of primary balance or any other engine/industry that continues to use them outside of "classic motorcycles".

No debate that its not the most technological machine, yet that is what the buyers wanted. Harley had a good thing with the Buell, and they sent Eric Buell packing and discontinued the brand. I can't defend their business practice, just let the potential "classic" buyers have the option.

 

[grillebilly]

OHC inline four from a Japanese manufacturer in 1969 that forever changed the rules.

The design had been around a long time. Maybe the Japanese made it better, cheaper and more reliable. The first engines from the Orient in the 60's and early 70's were copies of British and American workhorses. I'll give you the fact they took our market more serious than we did.

Edit: above was relating to car engines.

 

[E-Stat]

No debate that its not the most technological machine, yet that is what the buyers wanted.

Or did they? According to this article, production of the CB750 alone eclipsed all of H-D in four years.

The design had been around a long time.

That's what the Model T used!

Virtually all MotoGP bikes have four cylinders with Aprilia, Ducati, Honda and KTM using V-4s while Suzuki and Yamaha use I-4s. The Milwaukee Eight is a 1.9L twin!

 

[grillebilly]

Or did they? According to this article, production of the CB750 alone eclipsed all of H-D in four years.


That's what the Model T used!

Virtually all MotoGP bikes have four cylinders with Aprilia, Ducati, Honda and KTM using V-4s while Suzuki and Yamaha use I-4s.

Yeah no argument, Honda and Harley have different target buyers. HD's are expensive, overweight, and under-powered by comparison. Yet they managed to sell a ton of bikes, and dealerships looked like Nieman-Marcus stores. Buyers had to wait in line and pay over retail for years. It was crazy, I have had bikes since 1972 and HD's since the late 70's and it was shocking to me. A drive past the local emporium on a weekend looked like like a bike run, 50 to 75 bikes in the parking lot. How did riding Harleys become such a fashionable activity? Well it did. Like I said in an earlier post, HD got too big too fast. They had to know it would have to come to an end (like the obsession with vintage stereo gear)

 

[E-Stat]

They had to know it would have to come to an end...

It seems that Cadillac is sharing a similar challenge. Increasingly, buyers are placing higher value on substance than perceived image.

 

[grillebilly]

It seems that Cadillac is sharing a similar challenge. Increasingly, buyers are placing higher value on substance than perceived image.

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss most Caddy and Harley owners as "buying into an image". We all like different things. Both marques do what they do pretty well. I would love to have a CTS-V wagon. They tell me the big HD tour bikes are very nice on the open road. They both have a lot of substance, just maybe not what you or the avearge buyer is looking for.
The OP was questioning the future of HD, now that the demographics have shifted. We want cheap and disposable products, and transportation is often looked at as a necessary evil. Indeed, the business model has changed as has everything else.

 

[E-Stat]

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss most Caddy and Harley owners as "buying into an image".

Consider the two Cadillacs that represent almost two thirds of their production: the XT5 and the Escalade.

The XT5 is a GMC Acadia with specific trim and tuning both manufactured in the same Spring Hill TN plant.
The Escalade is a GMC Yukon/Chevrolet Tahoe-Suburban with specific trim and tuning manufactured in the same Arlington TX plant.

MSRP of the Cadillacs is about 50% higher than its co-assembled otherwise identical platform brethren across each one's offerings. I cannot imagine option/feature differences account for all that.

 

[sanford12]

I'm 64 and grew up in an area where Harley was King. A lot of people from the South moved North to get jobs in the factories and a lot of them bought Harleys when they could afford one. Most of my friends rode them. Frankly when I rode them I wondered what they saw in them. A lot of it had to do with the culture too. That was another thing that turned me away from Harley-Davidsons. There were several biker gangs in the area and I never saw a bigger collection of asshats. And they weren't just bikers getting together they were criminal enterprises. Plenty of nice Harley Riders they just weren't some of them. The V-Rod is the closest HD ever got to me buying one.

I do ride a V-Twin but it's a Moto Guzzi and it's a much nicer riding bike than any Harley I've ever been on at about half the price. 15,000 + tax and license plates.

 

[E-Stat]

I do ride a V-Twin but it's a Moto Guzzi...

Note the obvious engine configuration difference.

 

[sKiZo]

Nothing wrong with old tried and true tech. Consider my new ride ... hasn't changed all that much since 1942, and in fact, maybe 60% of the parts between those and this 2011 are interchangeable if you've got a big enough hammer.

PS - if the Ural looks kinda like a BMW, that's only because it basically is. Russia reverse engineered the M71 and started building their own. I expect they didn't even feel all that guilty about copyright and all that, seeing as Germany was invading them at the time ...

 

[sanford12]

Read a story about a guy who rode his two-wheel drive Ural all winter in some state like Minnesota or Wisconsin. I can't imagine why. But they are cool bikes. One of my boys wanted one for a while probably still does.

 

[sKiZo]

Yup ... they'll only do 70mph, but they'll do it all day, be it the Antarctic or the Sahara desert ...

 

[Pio1980]

HDs best product has always been the FL line as tourers. Great all-day comfort and a near-universal fit for most riders. Their policy of servicing tour riders and having dealers well-marked on interstate highways open on weekends is a distinct advantage for their rider/owners.
Having said that, I ride an Indian Scout.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Overheard a conversation with Harley mechanic recently as he was asked if they have gotten more reliable through the years and he responded, " I don't have to worry about job security for the rest of my career "

 

[grillebilly]

The longest lasting and largest selling motorcycle company built in the most technologically advanced country in the world. That says a lot more than opinions about why some people don't like them.