Maybe because he has free medical for hearing aids. 
How much wattage do you use, on average?
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Scott75s1974
Well-Known Member
What happens is that the amp can start "clipping." To be very simplistic: say your amp is multiplying the signal by 10 times. You have a portion of the music that is loud or particularly demanding. Loud = one guitar or drum standing out. Complex = a lot of different instruments/voices at once across the frequencies. When this happens your amp might not be able to multiply the signal by 10x. It only has enough wattage to do say 5x. Well the wave form coming out of the amp gets chopped. At some level the voltage hits the ceiling and it turns into DC. Think of a sine wave. Now flatten the top and the bottom peaks. Those flat lines are DC. And DC is bad for speakers voice coils. Tweeters have tiny ones and are easily damaged this way.
So, the paradox, that speakers are frequently damaged more by amps that have too little wattage.
It's not just about how loud you want to play. If your amp can play the music you like clearly at volumes you want, then all is well.
But sometimes clipping can happen even at reasonable sound levels.
So back to my moderately powered 60 WPC system. From a loudness perspective, I really can't turn the volume all the way up and stay in the room without hurting my ears. But on really demanding, complex pieces of music, it can start clipping at half volume. And since there are exponential curves involved, it would take a MUCH larger amp for me to be able to play those pieces without clipping.
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the skipper
Professional Curmudgeon
There is no absolute number that can be applied to every situation. Deal with it.
Peaks in a good recording will be 12-15dB louder than its average loudness (or even more). Each 3dB requires a doubling of power. This is true no matter the volume (loudness) you are listening at. If your amplifier cannot deliver the necessary power, it will clip...which simply means that it does not have a enough power to fully reproduce the signal. In turn, this distorts it. Minor clipping is not obvious, but it quickly becomes more apparent.
Few meters built into receivers and amps do a good job of showing transients. Some amps have clipping indicators, helping you to avoid it.
A clipped signal is not DC. But even if it were, the crossover capacitors in the mid and high frequency circuits would block it. And even if they did not, DC in and of itself does not damage speakers.
Damage is a function of too much power. Until the whole signal is completely clipped, the higher frequency portions can still be further amplified. Pushing the volume knob when the amp is already clipping can therefore result in over-powering the tweeters (and even the mids).
If your tweeters can handle 15 watts and your amp can only deliver 10 at full throttle, they will not be damaged no matter how bad the clipping is.
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Once again this kind of question has descended into a debate about headroom and watts, as if amplifiers are watt sources. Accordingly, my typical dynamics and wattage rants are applicable.
Human ears only have a useful dynamic range of about 80dB or so. If you're listening much above that, your ears attenuate the volume. Dynamics are one of the lesser important facets of audio and can even become difficult and tiring to listen to. I don't personally find the dynamics argument for massively powerful amps to be very convincing unless you've got some 3 ohm Wilson's are some 2.4 ohm Focals that really torture your amp.
Beyond that, amps are voltage sources, not wattage sources. To figure out what my power usage really is I had to calculate the current demand of a 2.8 ohm load at the voltage required to produce the desired amplitude into 8 ohm.
To get 96.5dB at my chair I need 10 watts at 8 ohm, but more importantly, I need 8.94V. Of course, the impedance goes all over the place, and that's what produces a power demand in the form of current from the amp. At whatever frequency I might need 10 watts and at another I might need 28 while at another frequency I might only need 5 5 watts.
My little 31 watt class A amps are more than capable of putting 105dB in my living room, and that's insanely loud. You WILL do hearing damage listening to that kind of volume even briefly on any kind of regular basis. Anything about 85dB isn't doing your ears any favors and I rarely listen with peaks much louder than that. Nobody really should.
The whole point of a good lower power amp is sound quality of a type you simply cannot get from big high power amps. Yeah, everyone with a monster amp will claim it does 2 watts just as good and a simple 2 stage 25 watt amp, but some of us know better than that because we own them.
Human ears only have a useful dynamic range of about 80dB or so. If you're listening much above that, your ears attenuate the volume. Dynamics are one of the lesser important facets of audio and can even become difficult and tiring to listen to. I don't personally find the dynamics argument for massively powerful amps to be very convincing unless you've got some 3 ohm Wilson's are some 2.4 ohm Focals that really torture your amp.
Beyond that, amps are voltage sources, not wattage sources. To figure out what my power usage really is I had to calculate the current demand of a 2.8 ohm load at the voltage required to produce the desired amplitude into 8 ohm.
To get 96.5dB at my chair I need 10 watts at 8 ohm, but more importantly, I need 8.94V. Of course, the impedance goes all over the place, and that's what produces a power demand in the form of current from the amp. At whatever frequency I might need 10 watts and at another I might need 28 while at another frequency I might only need 5 5 watts.
My little 31 watt class A amps are more than capable of putting 105dB in my living room, and that's insanely loud. You WILL do hearing damage listening to that kind of volume even briefly on any kind of regular basis. Anything about 85dB isn't doing your ears any favors and I rarely listen with peaks much louder than that. Nobody really should.
The whole point of a good lower power amp is sound quality of a type you simply cannot get from big high power amps. Yeah, everyone with a monster amp will claim it does 2 watts just as good and a simple 2 stage 25 watt amp, but some of us know better than that because we own them.
Chris Brown
Super Member
Everyone has different goals and music can be enjoyed in many forms. I have a wonderful headphone setup attached to my main computer, and it does a wonderful job when I want to "listen" to music.
But there is more to music than that. My main stereo system isn't just about being able to listen to music, it's about being able to experience the music. I don't just want to hear the music, I want to feel the music. I want to feel every drum beat right in the center of my chest. I want feel the room shake with the deep bass. I want to feel the hair on my arms vibrate.
How much wattage do I use on average? That would be pretty hard to calculate with any accuracy. Just about every song will have lulls in it that would obviously lower the average. I can say that the Yamaha P3500 amp that I use for my two passive 4-ohm subwoofers is good for 500w into 4-ohms. On some nights, I push that amp right to the edge of clipping for extended periods of time, so I'll make a safe guess that the "average" is probably more than 1 watt.
For my regular (non-subwoofer) speakers, I know that my Yamaha M-2 amplifier is good for ~240wpc into 8 ohms, and I've had the overload (clip) lights twinkle in past occasions when using my JBL L150 or L100T speakers. I now run those speakers using 4 bridged Yamaha P2200/P2201 amps good for ~700wpc each into 8 ohms. I'm probably running those speakers in the 20-150wpc range most of the time. I don't use a high-pass filter with my mains; so they contribute their fair share of bass in conjunction with my subwoofers, which is probably where most of that power usage comes from.
What is "safe" will come down to context. Human hearing is most sensitive in the vocal range, for obvious reasons. The human ear is much less sensitive to frequencies toward the edge of the audible spectrum; frequencies such as bass. Hearing damage occurs much faster when the exposure corresponds with frequencies that the ear is more sensitive to, and much slower when the exposure corresponds with frequencies that the ear is less sensitive to. The sound frequencies of a gunshot, for example, often corresponds very closely with the vocal range that the ears are most sensitive to. That is part of the reason why you can make your ears ring and cause permanent damage from firing even one single bullet without hearing protection.
The Skipper kind of nailed it. It's a very complex answer. Reactive Load did nicely on a quasi technical answer. RL was being polite and just giving you a glimpse of what is actually happening. Cracked the door open a bit. It's all about maintaining the voltage you are demanding to recreate the music. If you walk into Best Buy and plop $150 down for a 100w off brand receiver that weighs 5-6 lbs, you don't have 100 watts available to drive speakers. There could easily be times with a moderately reactive speaker load where one watt will be difficult if not impossible, quite often when the music gets demanding and you need it most. Someone above mentioned a 25w class A amp. This has a power supply many times greater than our offbrand special, and an output section many times stronger in terms of voltage delivery and heat dissipation (current capabilities). Amps like that are heavy and of course expensive. But they are designed to actually address the demands of a speaker.
Unfortunately, those of us who have been around gear for many years develop a language that isn't well understood by those on the outside or new to the game. A sort of categorization of specifications spoken without even inflections of the voice or even snide snickers.
Eventually, should you get the HiFi bug, you figure out the beauty of a single ended 2A3 amp that may not be 2 watts, or my long running fetish for amps with very stiff power supplies and bookshelf speakers. My moment of pure bliss came from my 6" two ways on a 600 watt pair of Bryston 7BSSTs. Up until the point where collapsing line voltage from the wall compromised available amplifier power. But I love tubes as well. Trade offs. It's what we do
Unfortunately, those of us who have been around gear for many years develop a language that isn't well understood by those on the outside or new to the game. A sort of categorization of specifications spoken without even inflections of the voice or even snide snickers.
Eventually, should you get the HiFi bug, you figure out the beauty of a single ended 2A3 amp that may not be 2 watts, or my long running fetish for amps with very stiff power supplies and bookshelf speakers. My moment of pure bliss came from my 6" two ways on a 600 watt pair of Bryston 7BSSTs. Up until the point where collapsing line voltage from the wall compromised available amplifier power. But I love tubes as well. Trade offs. It's what we do
Lots of assholes and opinions here (equal amount, who'd of thunk?)
All over the map because of room size, speaker efficiency, and most importantly - personal preference. No right or wrong here.
Avg for me is low, 2-25 watts, but with my old triamp system that is in the shop for new bass cabinets and crossover repair, I sometimes clipped the 1200 w/ch Crown amp on the bass cabs, and with 94dB drivers. Sadly, destroyed an AE 15" woofer (had it reconed) as well going a bit overboard. Doubling up with dual 15's in the new cabs, so should be good to go upcoming.
Now I am using Yamaha MX1000 on passive homebuilt mid 90's efficiency speaks and I sometimes see over 600 watts displayed.
Music and mood. Just watch exposure time when you crank it!
All over the map because of room size, speaker efficiency, and most importantly - personal preference. No right or wrong here.
Avg for me is low, 2-25 watts, but with my old triamp system that is in the shop for new bass cabinets and crossover repair, I sometimes clipped the 1200 w/ch Crown amp on the bass cabs, and with 94dB drivers. Sadly, destroyed an AE 15" woofer (had it reconed) as well going a bit overboard. Doubling up with dual 15's in the new cabs, so should be good to go upcoming.
Now I am using Yamaha MX1000 on passive homebuilt mid 90's efficiency speaks and I sometimes see over 600 watts displayed.
Music and mood. Just watch exposure time when you crank it!
grillebilly
Empty Head
To answer the op's question, 1 watt average listening, up to 5 for certain genres that get better with volume. You can't hear anyone calling from another room at 5.
infullview
Super Member
A lot of very good info about power vs speaker load. I've always had SS amps and my current set up is only about 40 watts. At most I use about 10 watts at normal listening levels. My brother used to tell me that a good tube amp sounds better than SS because the coupling of the output transformer as an inductive device is better able to match to the speaker load. I don't know if that makes sense or is true, but I'm on the way to find out for my self. I'm finishing up a recap on a decent preamp and will be using it to drive two David Bogen DB20 amps.
whoaru99
Epic Member
My opinion is that the ratio of assholes to opinions isn't equal in this case (and, yes, I know the cliché...). Lots of opinions, but fortunately fewer assholes. Not to say none, but fewer. LOL.
whoaru99
Epic Member
In most cases of tube amp it's true a transformer is used to match the load...but it's a necessity of most tube amp designs. There are some output transformer-less (OTL) tube amps and there are some SS amps that use output transformers.
But, that output transformers are the reason they sound good, to me, is sorta one of those audio myths.
THIS is the kind of explanation I was looking for. And yes, in my original post when I said I was using under 10w, I should've said like 1/2 - 1w. I wasn't sure how accurate my meters were or if I just listen at married-guy-with-kids SPL.
All very good info, thanks for the education, all!
I am glad I never had to deal with that. My ex typically played louder than I did and the girls slept thru it from the day they got home from being born until they moved out, music everyday most of the day. What’s cool at 30yrs and 24yrs old they both are into it and have decent little systems
As far as what you need. This thread will be like all the rest. Those using Class A’s and SETs will say a few WPC is enough and for the most part those who have never done it will tell you no way it’s enough
.As someone suggested already you just need to try it and you do you
THIS is another clear explanation, thanks.
Supercool!
Super Member
I "marry" amps to speakers and this really works well for me. With some, my integrated classic tube amps rule yet the best advice I ever got on powering my Von Schweikert VR4 JRS was to not fear the power. I had a 150 watt PS Audio HCA-2 (modded) there first and it was good but I always felt something was missing...moved to a 300 watt Mark Levinson and OMG what an improvement...totally satisfying! Ironically the HCA-2 is temporarily powering a much more expensive set of Westlake BBSM 10s of lower efficiency in the studio and they sound fantastic together. I can only imaging what the ML would do, but at about 80lbs it's going to take awhile before I try a swap.
I also note that power effects sound in subtle ways too..seldom louder just more tactile, better grip and air...sometimes... JMTC YMMV
I also note that power effects sound in subtle ways too..seldom louder just more tactile, better grip and air...sometimes... JMTC YMMV
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