Inner Groove Distortion- Turntable problem?
- Thread starter 80sonvinyl
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80sonvinyl
Member
Same guy that tried records on his setup. Post #229.
You have to understand that here in Ireland we've been in full lockdown since mid October until early Dec (hopefully). People are simply unwilling to do that sort of non essential stuff, including myself tbh. No point risking my own and others' health for a stupid turntable, after all! That's why the dealings with this guy was done by post.
If only I had kept my ATLP3 for a while longer. Yes it's sub €200, but it would have been enough to troubleshoot with.
Punk_oldie
Active Member
I don't know about your laptop specifically but some laptops do allow reconfiguring of the microphone in as a line in. This video covers the steps if you want to check. I'd skip the waffle and jump to 1.10:
80sonvinyl
Member
It seems I can do it. Will play around with it tonight and see if i can get any needledrops up.
EDIT: I knew there'd be a catch. Under Jack Information it says 'Digital Jack'...my actual headphone jack is linked to 'Speakers/headphones'. This is the in-built microphone...so even if it technically can be used as a LINE IN, there's no physical jack to do so.
Maybe I'm missing something?
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Punk_oldie
Active Member
Ah yes you'll need a separate 3.5mm microphone socket, otherwise I think that's that
I listened to Private Idaho several times. Through two phones and my speakers. I'm sorry, but I can't hear any extra or sibilant distortion in neither Fred's nor Cindy's voice nor Ricky Wilson's great Stratocaster riffs. Usually, I can pick up surface noise better with my closed-back Sony MDR-Z1R phones. No luck.
Do you have the original Tamla stereo version of The Temptation Sing Smokey? There are several songs on that seminal album where the stereo mix of James Jamerson bass and Ben Benjamin drum work (particularly the snare) has distorted ghost notes riding on top of their excellent rhythm work. Especially My Girl. It is very noticeable on this great song. Now, if you listen to the mono pressing (I have the UK EMI Motown/Tamla pressing) --- all the riding ghost notes are gone, and the bass is so much more profound and cleaner.
I came up with another album that you may want to try. The Rascals Time Peace. Original 1968 stereo Atlantic gatefold (SD8190). The first song on side A, I Ain't Gonna Eat Out My Heart Anymore, is oddly engineered and mixed. Eddie's lead vocal sounds like he was too close to the mike at times. Plus, the engineers over-modulated his voice. They are muffled and distorted at times. The background overdubbed vocals (by Eddie and Felix) are fine --- though too loud, compared to the lead vocal (IMHO). The guitar solo is on the left side only. Plus, it's EQ'ed differently than the rest of the song. The engineer poorly overdubbed this song. Anyhow, it's a great tune. My opinion, they needed to it re-edit at the studio before release.
The rest of the tunes on this greatest hits album are very good, mastered to similar EQ and loudness. Some of my most favorite songs are on this album. Worth hunting for a VG+++ used copy.
The rest of the tunes on this greatest hits album are very good, mastered to similar EQ and loudness. Some of my most favorite songs are on this album. Worth hunting for a VG+++ used copy.
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80sonvinyl
Member
Thanks , may try those pressings in future. I could hear IGD on private Idaho past the halfway mark...on both Fred and Cindy's voice and the guitar. Like a faint scratching sound enveloping everything. Maybe I just have super hearing..I really don't knowI listened to Private Idaho several times. Through two phones and my speakers. I'm sorry, but I can't hear any extra or sibilant distortion in neither Fred's nor Cindy's voice nor Ricky Wilson's great Stratocaster riffs. Usually, I can pick up surface noise better with my closed-back Sony MDR-Z1R phones. No luck.
Do you have the original Tamla stereo version of The Temptation Sing Smokey? There are several songs on that seminal album where the stereo mix of James Jamerson bass and Ben Benjamin drum work (particularly the snare) has distorted ghost notes riding on top of their excellent rhythm work. Especially My Girl. It is very noticeable on this great song. Now, if you listen to the mono pressing (I have the UK EMI Motown/Tamla pressing) --- all the riding ghost notes are gone, and the bass is so much more profound and cleaner.
View attachment 2039128
By the way, you are listening to the vinyl version posted on this thread, and not just the digital?
I'm posting what I hear on my system --- with my albums. So far, I'm not getting distortion on the inner tracks of the songs you posted. Nothing which stands out, compared to the other songs on those albums.
The YT post of Private Idaho is just an example, of the inner track song off that album. I am not a fan of that particular AT MM cartridge. It looks like either an AT150 or VM760 line. A little too bright for my system and ears. So, a bit of extra on top of the treble is what I hear with those cartridges, with any album or turntable setup. Any song.
The Art of Noise is a vinyl YT clip. The Rascals maybe CD. But, I was posting the Rascals songs, because of what I believe is distortion due to engineering and mastering of one particular song. I Ain't Gonna Eat Out...
The Temptations My Girl is an example of poor stereo mastering, versus the same song by the same studio --- but mastered in mono.
The YT post of Private Idaho is just an example, of the inner track song off that album. I am not a fan of that particular AT MM cartridge. It looks like either an AT150 or VM760 line. A little too bright for my system and ears. So, a bit of extra on top of the treble is what I hear with those cartridges, with any album or turntable setup. Any song.
The Art of Noise is a vinyl YT clip. The Rascals maybe CD. But, I was posting the Rascals songs, because of what I believe is distortion due to engineering and mastering of one particular song. I Ain't Gonna Eat Out...
The Temptations My Girl is an example of poor stereo mastering, versus the same song by the same studio --- but mastered in mono.
I guess what I'm trying to do is separate poor engineering and mastering of a song versus poor tracking off an album. If you hear the same distortion I'm hearing --- on what I believe are songs, which what I believe are poor studio issues --- then it maybe easier to separated tracking from vinyl problems. At least, over the Internet.
Here's another that I hear. ANY copy of Getz/Gilberto album with Girl From Ipanema is pretty well done, except the piano solo (at 3:50) in that song, IMHO. It sounds as if the mike was not placed well or two mikes (close and far) should have use. The piano lacks the rich harmonics of a good recording. Tell me what you think. Maybe we can narrow down both of our definitions of distortion, from a long distance on the Net.
Here's another that I hear. ANY copy of Getz/Gilberto album with Girl From Ipanema is pretty well done, except the piano solo (at 3:50) in that song, IMHO. It sounds as if the mike was not placed well or two mikes (close and far) should have use. The piano lacks the rich harmonics of a good recording. Tell me what you think. Maybe we can narrow down both of our definitions of distortion, from a long distance on the Net.
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80sonvinyl
Member
Just had a listen to 'I aint gonna eat out...' and 'girl from ipanema'. OK, the first one is incredibly poor and honestly I had to end it early. But it's not the kind of distortion I hear...my kind of 'distortion' is a scratching/rasping sound accompanying loud vocals/instruments. I didn't hear anything like that in either recording here. The piano on the second song, I agree, is lacking in harmonics and is awkwardly panned slightly to the left, but again in terms of anything that would sound like IGD, no nothing like that. In fact if I got these two songs on the LPs, I'd be happy with them as there's no obvious distortion sans what was actually recorded. It's poor but I'd have to conclude that that is what the artists wanted.I guess what I'm trying to do is separate poor engineering and mastering of a song versus poor tracking off an album. If you hear the same distortion I'm hearing --- on what I believe are songs, which what I believe are poor studio issues --- then it maybe easier to separated tracking from vinyl problems. At least, over the Internet.
Here's another that I hear. ANY copy of Getz/Gilberto album with Girl From Ipanema is pretty well done, except the piano solo (at 3:50) in that song, IMHO. It sounds as if the mike was not placed well or two mikes (close and far) should have use. The piano lacks the rich harmonics of a good recording. Tell me what you think. Maybe we can narrow down both of our definitions of distortion, from a long distance on the Net.
Punk_oldie
Active Member
That's interesting, to me IGD manifests as a slight 'dissolving' of clarity of sound, maybe a bit of 'fuzziness' around the vocals and / or the instruments, which if it's really bad turns into buzzing - especially higher frequencies or louder passages. I wouldn't describe it as "scratching/rasping", unless it's just choice of words of course.
Okay. So we're on the same page. Sounds like you have a tracking issue, and not a poorly mastered LP issue. What was your turntable and cartridge setup, again?
Do you have any photos of how you setup the cartridge, tonearm, and turntable?
Thanks!
Kinda like these?
80sonvinyl
Member
Yeah I'd call it fuzziness too
80sonvinyl
Member
I aligned with the Technics overhang gauge, so different from a protractor. As far as I can tell, everything is bang on. Maybe apart from azimuth, but I'm not going to fiddle with those screws on the tonearm. Aren't there different types of poor mastering? For instance, an engineer may accidentally cut a track too hot, thus causing mistracking on a playback system. Also, it's entirely possible some of my LPs are worn out...I don't know their history after all. This seems to be the consensus, because other LPs play beautifully, including 12 inch and 7 inch singles( which by nature are cut 'hotter' than an album).Okay. So we're on the same page. Sounds like you have a tracking issue, and not a poorly mastered LP issue. What was your turntable and cartridge setup, again?
Do you have any photos of how you setup the cartridge, tonearm, and turntable?
Thanks!
Kinda like these?
View attachment 2039480 View attachment 2039487 View attachment 2039486
If you listen to that particular Private Idaho video very carefully, I'm confident you'll hear mistracking happening from half way to the end. I heard it first time, but it seems my hearing acuity is quite good! Pay attention to , in particular, when the girls start singing at 3.07.
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Punk_oldie
Active Member
I know this has been discussed already, but given how much further along we are now, I would again recommend you try an arc protractor. If you've already adjusted the cart in the headshell to match the Technics overhang gauge then aligning to an arc protractor is certainly no more complicated. All you need is your pivot to spindle distance, which I believe is 215mm, download Conrad Hoffman's tool, and off you go. There are plenty of us on here who can help with any questions.
80sonvinyl
Member
So having adjusted the cart to the gauge, what more is left to do on the arc protractor?
I did download the Conrad Hoffman tool a while back but was kind of overwhelmed at the information it requests. Doubt these figures are in the manual. I would certainly appreciate a step by step if you had the time (considering I've already matched cart to overhang gauge). My table is a Technics sl1500c.
I know these records are probably just worn but I wouldn't mind trying that protractor anyway.
Punk_oldie
Active Member
OK, so the only input measurement you need is the pivot to spindle measurement for your table. I'm not a Technics expert but I think yours is 215mm, someone else can I'm sure confirm. So:
1) launch the program, input 215mm (once that's confirmed) in the Spindle to Pivot Distance box
2) Choose DIN (most common average run-out groove widths) and Stevenson (the alignment that gives lowest distortion at inner grooves) then press Print Arc Template (your default printer settings should be OK)
3) Check the X and Y scales on your printed template with a ruler, (the measures are printed on both axis). Assuming they're accurate your arc template is good.
4) To cut the spindle hole I put small bits of tape around the edge of the hole then use a craft knife to cut small incisions from the diameter to the centre point then gently push down over the spindle.
5) Put an LP on the platter then the printed template on top, and if you've got a record weight put that on, or alternatively use a little bit of tape. Some people also do something to stop the platter rotating (wedge with foam, tape platter to plinth), but I've never found this a problem.
6) All you want to do first is get the cartridge positioned in the headshell such that the tip of the stylus traces the arc across the whole width, so just move it backwards or forwards until that's achieved. Once done check the stylus cantilever aligns to the centre line of either one of the two grids (doesn't really matter which). I use a magnifying glass as my eyesight is a bit iffy nowadays.
And that's basically it. I actually gloss photo paper to print these on as I find the reflection makes alignment easier, but again that's just to compensate for my dicky eyes! I'd say it really is worth getting the hang of this because once mastered it makes cartridge setup so much easier, and also you can if you wish start experimenting with different geometries (baerwald, lofgren B, stevenson, self-defined) to find your preference.
1) launch the program, input 215mm (once that's confirmed) in the Spindle to Pivot Distance box
2) Choose DIN (most common average run-out groove widths) and Stevenson (the alignment that gives lowest distortion at inner grooves) then press Print Arc Template (your default printer settings should be OK)
3) Check the X and Y scales on your printed template with a ruler, (the measures are printed on both axis). Assuming they're accurate your arc template is good.
4) To cut the spindle hole I put small bits of tape around the edge of the hole then use a craft knife to cut small incisions from the diameter to the centre point then gently push down over the spindle.
5) Put an LP on the platter then the printed template on top, and if you've got a record weight put that on, or alternatively use a little bit of tape. Some people also do something to stop the platter rotating (wedge with foam, tape platter to plinth), but I've never found this a problem.
6) All you want to do first is get the cartridge positioned in the headshell such that the tip of the stylus traces the arc across the whole width, so just move it backwards or forwards until that's achieved. Once done check the stylus cantilever aligns to the centre line of either one of the two grids (doesn't really matter which). I use a magnifying glass as my eyesight is a bit iffy nowadays.
And that's basically it. I actually gloss photo paper to print these on as I find the reflection makes alignment easier, but again that's just to compensate for my dicky eyes! I'd say it really is worth getting the hang of this because once mastered it makes cartridge setup so much easier, and also you can if you wish start experimenting with different geometries (baerwald, lofgren B, stevenson, self-defined) to find your preference.
I never had luck with that plastic Technics overhang gauge. When I compare the results to any protractor. Protractors (even those you can download from Vinyl Engine) seem to lead to better tracking.
