Inner Groove Distortion- Turntable problem?

[Punk_oldie]

Yeah. I know it's possible that a new turntable could have issues, but I hate going to the awful trouble of packing it up and sending it for assessment when the evidence that it is indeed the TT is very scant.

What I was trying to say was, I think it's extremely unlikely that your TT's got a problem, and I'd actually be surprised if such a high proportion of the LPs you've got have 'baked in' IGD.

Let me use my own experience as an example. I never got out of playing vinyl, but it was only in the '90s that I started to pay attention to actual TT setup, so for many years I was playing my vinyl collection on cr*p old equipment, with no understanding even of VTF, never mind anything beyond that (my standard 'fix' for skips was to tape a penny on top of the headshell - weigh it down to stop it jumping.........). Anyhow, as I became more aware of proper setup, I also became aware of the actual playback quality I was getting - I started to notice IGD on a lot of my records. This was on my first 'proper' TT, a NAD 5120, with an Ortofon OM5 cart. I then got hold of a Pioneer PL112D, and paid more and more attention to trying to set things up better. This is when I started to learn about things like alignment and azimuth, and I tried some better carts, an AT120e, and then an AT440MLa. But IGD still plagued me. I even started to wonder whether all those years of playing my records on cr*p equipment with zero attention to setup had somehow permanently damaged my records.

Then I got an Acoustic Research 'The Turntable', and continued to improve my setup skills, as well as being able to invest in better cartridges. And guess what, my records started to sound better, and IGD became less of an issue, but was still something that cropped up more regularly than I was happy about. That was seven years ago. Since then I have continued to learn, and to practice my setup skills. I've also further improved my equipment.

And the result, of my whole 1400+ LP collection, I can actually name the handful of records which still suffer IGD: Penetration - Moving Targets last track side 2, last tracks on both sides of X-ray Spex - Germ Free Adolescents, last few minutes of side 1 of a 1959 pressing of Verdi - Il Forza Del Destino, Rich Kids - Ghost Of Princes In Towers last track side1, and Cockney Rejects - Greatest Hits Vol. 1 last track side 2. And that's it. So I hadn't damage my records, I just hadn't set up my turntable properly. And I still wonder whether I'm not quite there yet, because who knows, maybe those last five problem tracks can also be fixed with even more precise setup................

 

[80sonvinyl]

What I was trying to say was, I think it's extremely unlikely that your TT's got a problem, and I'd actually be surprised if such a high proportion of the LPs you've got have 'baked in' IGD.

Let me use my own experience as an example. I never got out of playing vinyl, but it was only in the '90s that I started to pay attention to actual TT setup, so for many years I was playing my vinyl collection on cr*p old equipment, with no understanding even of VTF, never mind anything beyond that (my standard 'fix' for skips was to tape a penny on top of the headshell - weigh it down to stop it jumping.........). Anyhow, as I became more aware of proper setup, I also became aware of the actual playback quality I was getting - I started to notice IGD on a lot of my records. This was on my first 'proper' TT, a NAD 5120, with an Ortofon OM5 cart. I then got hold of a Pioneer PL112D, and paid more and more attention to trying to set things up better. This is when I started to learn about things like alignment and azimuth, and I tried some better carts, an AT120e, and then an AT440MLa. But IGD still plagued me. I even started to wonder whether all those years of playing my records on cr*p equipment with zero attention to setup had somehow permanently damaged my records.

Then I got an Acoustic Research 'The Turntable', and continued to improve my setup skills, as well as being able to invest in better cartridges. And guess what, my records started to sound better, and IGD became less of an issue, but was still something that cropped up more regularly than I was happy about. That was seven years ago. Since then I have continued to learn, and to practice my setup skills. I've also further improved my equipment.

And the result, of my whole 1400+ LP collection, I can actually name the handful of records which still suffer IGD: Penetration - Moving Targets last track side 2, last tracks on both sides of X-ray Spex - Germ Free Adolescents, last few minutes of side 1 of a 1959 pressing of Verdi - Il Forza Del Destino, Rich Kids - Ghost Of Princes In Towers last track side1, and Cockney Rejects - Greatest Hits Vol. 1 last track side 2. And that's it. So I hadn't damage my records, I just hadn't set up my turntable properly. And I still wonder whether I'm not quite there yet, because who knows, maybe those last five problem tracks can also be fixed with even more precise setup................

Thanks for that...as I say though I've tried every adjustment. Maybe a better cart down the line will fix things a bit but not holding my breath. When you talk about 'setup skills' what do you mean, apart from the basic stuff? How do you align your cart? You've probably said it already, but my lazy arse can't be bothered to troll back through 14 pages lol.
I'd argue that the LPs are still damaged, but you've fine tuned your setup so good that it's no longer an issue. If they weren't, I'm sure an AT440MLa on an LP120 would be more than capable of good playback. But you now have to work a bit harder in order to remove the burned in IGD. Just my view on it. By the way, did you ever listen to some of the albums that you formerly had problems with through headphones? Maybe you managed to mitigate it through speakers but is still evident through cans. Most of my 'IGD' records play fine through the speakers, you don;t notice the distortion.

I put IGD in inverted commas because with many, there is high freq. distortion throughout. Which points to a VERY misaligned cart, a lot of weight on the tonearm, a damaged stylus, or all three, on pervious owners' setups

 

[Punk_oldie]

When you talk about 'setup skills' what do you mean, apart from the basic stuff? How do you align your cart? You've probably said it already, but my lazy arse can't be bothered to troll back through 14 pages lol.

Well. as per my post #250, I use arc templates now, but coincidentally, the first time I started to think about alignment was with the Pioneer, and initially started off with the overhang guage (49mm!), then moved to two point protractors. I've no idea whether practice has improved my skills or not, because I do actually agree with you, 'on paper' there's nothing particularly difficult about it.

I'd argue that the LPs are still damaged, but you've fine tuned your setup so good that it's no longer an issue. If they weren't, I'm sure an AT440MLa on an LP120 would be more than capable of good playback. But you now have to work a bit harder in order to remove the burned in IGD. Just my view on it.

I don't know whether it's possible to defeat genuine groove damage, no matter how 'perfect' a setup might be, my personal view would be probably not.

By the way, did you ever listen to some of the albums that you formerly had problems with through headphones? Maybe you managed to mitigate it through speakers but is still evident through cans. Most of my 'IGD' records play fine through the speakers, you don;t notice the distortion.

I do use headphones quite a lot as my 'listening room' is also the family sitting room (unfortunately.....), and I'm not noticing IGD there either. Also I'd categorise my system as quite revealing and analytical as this is the 'sound' I prefer, (even with loud nasty punk rock I like to be able to separate out the guitars, the bass and the drums, so to achieve that a revealing system is pretty much a must!), so I don't think IGD is being masked

 

[80sonvinyl]

Well. as per my post #250, I use arc templates now, but coincidentally, the first time I started to think about alignment was with the Pioneer, and initially started off with the overhang guage (49mm!), then moved to two point protractors. I've no idea whether practice has improved my skills or not, because I do actually agree with you, 'on paper' there's nothing particularly difficult about it.



I don't know whether it's possible to defeat genuine groove damage, no matter how 'perfect' a setup might be, my personal view would be probably not.



I do use headphones quite a lot as my 'listening room' is also the family sitting room (unfortunately.....), and I'm not noticing IGD there either. Also I'd categorise my system as quite revealing and analytical as this is the 'sound' I prefer, (even with loud nasty punk rock I like to be able to separate out the guitars, the bass and the drums, so to achieve that a revealing system is pretty much a must!), so I don't think IGD is being masked

OK. Thanks. Maybe it's simply your equipment and honed setup skills that have eliminated IGD for you. After trying everything including two-point protractors, overhang gauge, increased/decreased VTF, VTA and antiskate, I'd be pretty confident in concluding that some LPs I buy are simply damaged, ignoring the (unlikely?) scenario that my turntable is faulty. I do not know the history of some of my LPs, they could have been played on, as Mike Oldfield put it, 'old tin boxes'. As a relatively new collector I'm focused on more popular albums...certainly the albums I've had trouble with would probably have been relatively popular with teenagers and young adults in the late 70s and 80s. I don't really know what music you like to collect.
I'm just worried about the two new records I have that have distortion, this isn't IGD, though, it's throughout from the start . These must be just poor pressings. I do remember playing one of them a few times on my aunt's all-in-one system from the 70s (that probably still has it's original cartridge and dirty stylus)...so maybe it was that. (was a 180g record though). Also I have a few more records which I played on that and they're fine. BTW, that record still played like crap when cleaned twice.

 

[GChief]

What 'pushback' is there exactly?

I don’t know .Read most of your replies to people that have done this a long time, have seen a lot, and are giving you solid advice

 

[80sonvinyl]

I don’t know .Read most of your replies to people that have done this a long time, have seen a lot, and are giving you solid advice

Don't know what you mean mate, I'm open to everyone's help. I'm not shipping my turntable off to the store because one or two on here said it could be faulty, so if that counts as 'pushback' I'm sorry.

The reason I tend to push back against alignment suggestions is because I've tried both a two point Stevenson protector, and the gauge, and both still show up problems.

If there was some sort of consensus on a particular problem cause, then it would be a different story but there's not

 

[GChief]

Exactly my point

Your vast experience obviously trumps the 100 of years combined experience of the people you asked for help from, and giving solid advice. You have every answer for what they suggest

All good though, you do you

 

[metaleonid]

Do you get IGDs only on the records with louder volumes (recording level) or also with quieter recording level? Do you get distortions on the left channel only or on both channels? If it's on both channels, then your cartridge is the problem. If it's on the left channel, try to lower antiskating and see if IGD is reduced. Also the distortions might be embedded in the vinyl itself. Do you ever get distortions on 45 RPM records? If so, try to play the IGD fragments on 33 and see if they are reduced.