Inner Groove Distortion- Turntable problem?

[80sonvinyl]

The same release/pressing?

That's the thing...often it'll be the same release (for example nineteen-seventy-whatever UK first press), but the writing on the deadwax will be different.
Are you saying that some specific presses are just that way out of the factory?

Edit: Just realised that wasn't meant for me, but still relates to me as I have had the same experience

 

[GChief]

Are you saying that some specific presses are just that way out of the factory?

No, but I am sure some/many are. I am saying you have to compare apples to apples.

 

[AdlerW]

The same release/pressing?

Yep. Identical as far as I could tell.

Yeah very true. I suppose I'm just very paranoid as a novice, due to some people saying they have huge collections of used records and never get IGD. Not doubting them, maybe they're very lucky with buying used. Also I was once told that even though another pressing of the same album hasn't got IGD, it's not an accurate test unless the writing on the runout is identical. Sigh.
Now I tend to notice any little bit of distortion on albums. Sometimes on harsh guitar hits, for example, I'll hear a faint 'buzzing' in the left or right channel as it fades away, if you know what I mean. Stuff that you probably wouldn't hear on speakers but I hear on headphones. Stuff that although not overpowering, makes you question your setup and whether you're damaging records.

Like this for example but not as bad

I think it also depends on how people are listening and what they are listening to. I listen with closed-back headphones so I hear every little detail. That's not necessarily a good thing sometimes. It's made me hypersensitive to distortion and imperfections. Additionally, it's just the case that some genres seem to be a little easier to track. Opera (which I own a lot of) is notoriously difficult to track.

 

[80sonvinyl]

No, but I am sure some/many are. I am saying you have to compare apples to apples.

Yes I understand. So if one pressing tracks bad and another (not identical) tracks good, there could still be a fault somewhere on my end?

 

[80sonvinyl]

Yep. Identical as far as I could tell.



I think it also depends on how people are listening and what they are listening to. I listen with closed-back headphones so I hear every little detail. That's not necessarily a good thing sometimes. It's made me hypersensitive to distortion and imperfections. Additionally, it's just the case that some genres seem to be a little easier to track. Opera (which I own a lot of) is notoriously difficult to track.

Yeah. I love headphones (they allow me to listen to vinyl at 3 in the morning LOL) but I also kind of rue the day I bought them. I used to use the noise cancelling function but I don't bother with that much. I'm so sensitive to everything now. To the point of sometimes having uncharacteristically violent fantasies about chucking the turntable out of my 2 storey window.
Well, I wouldn't be lying when I'd say that I no longer hear IGD!!!

 

[Multiplex]

The inner grooves of a record can easily produce from 10hrz to 45000hrz. If they couldn't CD 4 quadraphonic records would be useless.

While this is true, I wouldn't say that this is done particularly easily. Dynamic range and hot high frequency passages still need to be somewhat subdued, because even a decent quad setup can be challenged by rapid high frequency accelerations in the inner grooves. If something isn't quite right in the setup of a quad system, the inner grooves will reveal it very quickly. It's not just about frequency range, but also the limitations in amplitude required for high frequencies to be reproduced accurately.

It also true that an average basic turntable isn't capable of tracing inner groove quad. Since most vinyl listeners don't concern themselves with quad, they are more likely to use budget conical styli, or entry-level ellipticals. Therefore, most albums are cut with this lowest common denominator of equipment in mind. Engineers usually master using gradually increasing dynamic compression and high frequency roll off as they cut into the inner grooves. This helps to prevent distortion and mistracking when played with with cheap playback equipment. When a record is cut this way, it doesn't matter how good your equipment is, it will never recover information that was omitted prior to cutting. In other words, there is likely to be some inner groove high frequency degradation even if your turntable does everything right.

All of this occurs because groove speed at the innermost grooves is roughly half that of the outermost. This is an obvious limitation of the format, and one that has long been acknowledged by mastering engineers. It is the reason why slower, softer songs, or "throwaway" filler tracks have traditionally been selected for inner groove cuts. It never ceases to amaze me that some will still dispute this.

 

[patient_ot]

Same OP from two other forums? I think so. In any case, my answer remains the same. Get in person set up help. Groove wear is also always a factor with used vinyl. On hotly cut records, the inner grooves are the first to go with a worn or crap stylus.

 

[Wolfie62]

If anyone owns these records, here's a few examples that cause hassle for me:


Thomas Dolby- Golden Age of Wireless (1983 Germany)- 'Cloudburst on Shingle St' sounds rotten.
Dire Straits- Brothers in Arms (1985 UK)- The guitars at the end of the title track sound very fuzzy. OK, this record was unlistenable anyway due to excessive surface noise, but it still irked me when the IGD popped up.

I bought both of these new in 1983 and 1985.

I used ADC XLM carts from 1981 until 1998, 1 gram VTF. So I know I have no groove damage. But I just grabbed both of these LPs and gave them a spin. No IGD, no distortion at all. That’s using a 0.6 mil conical on an ADC Point 4 cart (1964) and a Vivid Line Stylus on an Empire EDR.9 cart. Very disparate carts and styli.

You have something amiss in your alignment that your overhang gauge isn’t fixing for you. Pretty simple really.

 

[80sonvinyl]

I bought both of these new in 1983 and 1985.

I used ADC XLM carts from 1981 until 1998, 1 gram VTF. So I know I have no groove damage. But I just grabbed both of these LPs and gave them a spin. No IGD, no distortion at all. That’s using a 0.6 mil conical on an ADC Point 4 cart (1964) and a Vivid Line Stylus on an Empire EDR.9 cart. Very disparate carts and styli.

You have something amiss in your alignment that your overhang gauge isn’t fixing for you. Pretty simple really.

I highly doubt there's something so amiss as to cause the distortion I'm hearing on some LPs. I also tried the stevenson alignment before this, same story. Is it the Dolby album EMI 1C 038-1577821 ? That's the one I have.

 

[twiiii]

Part of the issue is thats the nature of the beast. The amount of landscape to spread the signal on gets smaller and moves slower as the diameter gets smaller. And mastering engineers are always trying to cram more signal on each side of the LP. But that said if your system, TT, isn't set properly and you are using inferior components you are just multiplying the problems. I discovered 45 years ago linear tone arms and the most advanced stylus profiles will solve the major issues giving you a very satisfactory listening experience. Of course picking a good TT is important as the base to add the preferred components . Its easy if you have sufficient funds. But everyone loves a challenge and with a little luck and not cutting to many corners you will be very happy with the results.

We had rules in the old days. 50% on speakers, 25% on electronics and 25% on turntable, arm,
and cartridge at full retail. The first system I really liked I spent 900 dollars on speakers, 399 dollars on a integrated amp 400 dollars on the turntable arm and cartridge. in 1964. Then I added a tuner, at $299 and a R2R tape deck at 549 dollars. The basic system before the ad ons came pretty close to the rules. To get an equivlent system new today you would have to spend 10 times that much.

 

[80sonvinyl]

Same OP from two other forums? I think so. In any case, my answer remains the same. Get in person set up help. Groove wear is also always a factor with used vinyl. On hotly cut records, the inner grooves are the first to go with a worn or crap stylus.

Didn't bring anyone in to look at it, but brought my cart and headshell into a very good hifi dealer who checked my alignment.

 

[Wolfie62]

I highly doubt there's something so amiss as to cause the distortion I'm hearing on some LPs. I also tried the stevenson alignment before this, same story. Is it the Dolby album EMI 1C 038-1577821 ? That's the one I have.

Nope. My copy is mastered by Capitol.

Better mastering, perhaps?


Mastering By:

 

[Wolfie62]

Plays clean as a whistle!

Last track, side 2, is “Cloudburst At Shingle Street”. It plays nice and clean. No distortion.


It’s been so long since I touched this album, the inner sleeve, anti-static polypropylene, disintegrated! Had to replace it.

 

[80sonvinyl]

Plays clean as a whistle!

Last track, side 2, is “Cloudburst At Shingle Street”. It plays nice and clean. No distortion.
View attachment 2035115

It’s been so long since I touched this album, the inner sleeve, anti-static polypropylene, disintegrated! Had to replace it.

Maybe...would bad mastering result in bad IGD-sounding vocals? The chorus on Cloudburst was awful on mine (German/European pressing). I have a UK copy which plays fine.
Isn't that the US version which has the extended Science?

I should add that on a few LPs it's not just the inner grooves...the Ultravox one is a bit problematic throughout on the high frequencies.

 

[adnick]

Have only encountered the issues described as alignment issues of one kind or another (cartridge, tonearm, anti-skate)

Although the cracking noise described, sounds more like a speed issue W/F...however some recordings are just bad.

Admittedly don’t know this turntable but, I’d set the anti-skate to 0 and try it on a couple of albums that have the issues, then turn it up 1/2 adjustment at a time.


Regards,
Andy

 

[patient_ot]

Dire Straits- Brothers in Arms (1985 UK)- The guitars at the end of the title track sound very fuzzy. OK, this record was unlistenable anyway due to excessive surface noise, but it still irked me when the IGD popped up.

Surface noise throughout on an old record like that means it's either filthy or it's groove wear. If it's groove wear, "burned in" IGD from playing over and over with a crappy cart or worn stylus is very common. General surface noise and "burned in" IGD go together like peanut butter and jelly on a groove-worn record.

 

[patient_ot]

For instance, I may buy 5-6 used records in 'NM' condition. Upon bringing them home, cleaning them, and playing them, 4 or 5 will be keepers, however I'll seek a replacement for the 1 or 2 (there;s ALWAYS at least one) that distort on the highs. This often sends me on a journey of 3 or 4 records before I find a pressing that's good.

Typical luck of the draw stuff with used vinyl, especially when buying online with the usual Discogs/eBay overgrading b.s. Sorry.

 

[patient_ot]

But since I found that one of my new records has slight IGD, it throws this into question. It's not throughout, it's a crackling in one or two loud areas that many may not notice but I do. Yes it could also just be a bad pressing (the song is quite loudly cut), but what are the chances? I don't have much new vinyl.

A lot of new vinyl is basically garbage. Compressed digital masters thrown on vinyl with an assembly line Joe Schmo doing the cutting. Not a good example or anything to rely on.

 

[patient_ot]

Y

Like this for example but not as bad

This is either burned in IGD or a cartridge that's not a particularly great tracker. The Rega Elys definitely isn't the best tracker/tracer so probably a combo of both.

I have two old U.S. pressings of this album (different cuts and cover art too) and both have problems but the better of the two sounds a lot better than that YT vid played through my system. I am also using the 95ML as my daily driver cartridge and a 1200mk7 turntable. The TT is mostly stock except for an Oyaide mat, a Michell clamp, and an aftermarket headshell that is a little bit heavier and more rigid than the stock one.

 

[patient_ot]

Also I was once told that even though another pressing of the same album hasn't got IGD, it's not an accurate test unless the writing on the runout is identical.

That is true. Mainly because a different runout would mean a different cut. Your UK pressing is going to be a different cut than the US copy for any album. Same goes for a first pressing vs. an edition that was pressed a few years later with a different cut vs. a brand new reissue that is a different cut still. You can have three copies of the same album and they can all be fundamentally different if they aren't the same cut.

By cut, I am referring to the lacquer cut or DMM plate cut. Please take some time and learn about how records are made.