Inner Groove Distortion- Turntable problem?

[Multiplex]

Just played the whole side of that problematic new record. Turns out it's not just the inner track, the first and second tracks have it too. Some songs fine. Like a 'crackle' similar to surface noise on high vocals/drum hits etc. I remember having had another like this in the past, it was the 2018 remaster of OMD's Architecture and Morality (which are quite well received). I thought that one was because I played it on a crappy record player 3 or 4 times, but the latest one, I never played it on that thing.

It would be interesting to look at that groove in the trouble spots with a powerful loupe. If there are little deformations or bits missing from the groove wall, you likely have a bad pressing. If it looks good, it might just be cut too hot. In which case, some of these passages might be good to use for fine tuning your setup.

 

[80sonvinyl]

It would be interesting to look at that groove in the trouble spots with a powerful loupe. If there are little deformations or bits missing from the groove wall, you likely have a bad pressing. If it looks good, it might just be cut too hot. In which case, some of these passages might be good to use for fine tuning your setup.

I have a loupe but i dont think it's powerful enough, and I wouldn;t know what to look for. Also it's white vinyl which makes it a pain in the backside to examine even with the naked eye. What a gimmick.

I think any 'fine tuning' that's permissable on my setup has been done by now.

 

[patient_ot]

*ahem* https://www.discogs.com/Various-13-...x-Original-Series-Soundtrack/release/12418481 *ahem*
Feel like such a millennial posting that Only decided to give it a spin as it's one of the few new records in my collection. Some decent 80s tunes on there though.

To confuse things- it's a soft, crackling sound, not really a 'harshness' or 'scratchiness' like on some of my other records. I don't want to mislead as I'm inexperienced, but I don't think it really sounds like your classic mistracking. But the problem remains that it's mostly on loud bits. Very listenable still, but not when you're sat thinking your TT has a problem!
And as I say, I've now found that it's everywhere on the record, well Side A anyway. I have never played any other side in full.

Might I add that it has a slight warp and is a bit off center, but that shouldn't affect things should it?

Soundtracks like that are just gimmicks. They are not designed for optimal sound quality whatsoever. You have a bunch of different music recorded at different times at different studios with different mastering and it's a challenge for any engineer to get that onto a record, 99% sure using digital copy masters and make it sound good. Basically it's not going to happen.

Warps and off center can create noise, especially with advanced stylus shapes. On off-center records, the ML stylus has a tendency to bounce around in the groove which creates noise. If you know how to manually enlarge the hole very slightly and manually center the off-center record, that can help. Even better if you have a record clamp to clamp the record down afterwards, which can also help with mild warps. That's what I do.

 

[patient_ot]

Have you tried a different cartridge from AT95? I had one before and sort of remember an "ability" to pick up unwanted noise from the records.

You could try to pick up something completely different off eBay. It wouldn't be too expensive but it would indicate whether the cartridge plays a role here.

OP is not using a run of the mill AT95. He is using a VM95ML, which is a completely different cartridge.

 

[80sonvinyl]

Soundtracks like that are just gimmicks. They are not designed for optimal sound quality whatsoever. You have a bunch of different music recorded at different times at different studios with different mastering and it's a challenge for any engineer to get that onto a record, 99% sure using digital copy masters and make it sound good. Basically it's not going to happen.

Warps and off center can create noise, especially with advanced stylus shapes. On off-center records, the ML stylus has a tendency to bounce around in the groove which creates noise. If you know how to manually enlarge the hole very slightly and manually center the off-center record, that can help. Even better if you have a record clamp to clamp the record down afterwards, which can also help with mild warps. That's what I do.

Didn't know that. Thanks for the help. It's more warped than off center...just looking at it now, the cart tends to sway slightly at the start of the LP, but doesn't really move nearer to the centre. Weird.
What kind of new LPs would you recommend for testing a setup...it seems a lot of new stuff is shoddily made just to cater for the Vinyl Revival.

 

[80sonvinyl]

Generally, what would a Hot Pressing on a badly set up system sound like? I'm assuming more 'scratchy' on highs than 'crackle'?

 

[Mr Boochie]

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/95088/Tacet-Vinyl_Check-180_Gram_Vinyl_Record

 

[Multiplex]

Generally, what would a Hot Pressing on a badly set up system sound like? I'm assuming more 'scratchy' on highs than 'crackle'?

The pops and crackles are from the stylus tip losing contact with the groove wall and slamming back against it. Assuming there aren't defects in the pressing, this happens because the modulations of the groove are so extreme that the stylus can't follow them, and it ends up bouncing around in the groove. This can be because of bad setup, a mass/compliance mismatch (which you should not have,) or in the most extreme cases, because the cartridge is being pushed beyond it's physical limitations.

 

[patient_ot]

Didn't know that. Thanks for the help. It's more warped than off center...just looking at it now, the cart tends to sway slightly at the start of the LP, but doesn't really move nearer to the centre. Weird.
What kind of new LPs would you recommend for testing a setup...it seems a lot of new stuff is shoddily made just to cater for the Vinyl Revival.

Sounds like an edge warp then? I'd need a video to confirm. Side to side sway across the whole LP usually means off-center pressing.

I'll have to think on that for you. If you like 80s music try to find an album that MOFI reissued. Something like Yaz's Upstairs at Eric's maybe. Of course even an audiophile label like MOFI can release a bad pressing out of run, since they are at the mercy of their pressing plant (RTI nowadays). Note that MOFI releases usually have a different EQ than the original releases, which you may or may not like. More neutral leaning towards midrange slightly. New MOFI releases are often done with little to no compression either, so you have to crank the volume more vs. a hot 80s cut.

Old MOFI was a completely different company with different engineers so not the same as the new stuff.

Most of the best mastered and pressed reissues I buy are jazz albums. For 80s post-punk/new wave/etc. vinyl I usually go for old vinyl or old CD editions. Depends though. Everything needs to be viewed on a case by case basis.

New records cut by "name" engineers like Kevin Gray, Chris Bellman, Ryan K. Smith, Bernie Grundman, etc. are more likely to sound good than one cut by a Joe Schmo.

Top new pressing plants IME are: RTI, Pallas, QRP, etc. Even though these plants do great work they can also get things wrong sometimes. Blame it on the vinyl trend and the pressure to pump out as many records as possible.

 

[808_state]

I run one of 3 phono preamps. The built in phono pre of my Sherwood, or the SAE, or the phono pre I designed and built 26 years ago. Current cart depends on what hour of what day. Currently on the arm is a NAD 9300 with a QLM 36 Stylus for evaluation.
It’s an aftermarket with a bonded elliptical. I’ve been running an Empire EDR.9, Shure M97 E4, and GE VR22. I’ve got 21 headshells loaded and aligned with various cartridges.

Thanks Wolfie. What would you say is your overall favorite stylus cut? Do you think it comes down to cut and tip mass (depending on the cantilever material) or do you think it's mainly alignment that dictates inner groove performance?

 

[patient_ot]

Generally, what would a Hot Pressing on a badly set up system sound like? I'm assuming more 'scratchy' on highs than 'crackle'?

I've heard hot records with crappy carts, and it doesn't matter how well they are set up, there will be noise and nasty IGD. Basically like the TFF video you posted upthread but much worse sounding. It comes down to the tracking and tracing limitations of the cartridge.

This is not going to be a problem on your set up, assuming you aligned the cartridge correctly.

If you want to increase performance you could put a KAB silicone damper on your turntable, as well as a more rigid, slightly heavier headshell. IME the 95ML works better with a headshell that is slightly heavier than stock on a Technics arm.

 

[doctor fuse]

I just did a total readjustment to my system, with one nice result being the elimination of a bit of IGD.

I raised the VTA, so the arm (Grace 707) is a fair bit tail-up. Sounds great, despite the maxim shouting in my head "PARALLEL ARM!".

Also reattached all wires from amps to speakers. And added some acoustic panels behind the planar speakers that I just scored for free yesterday. Not saying these helped the IGD, but the system sure sounds amazing now. Surface noise is almost gone as well, hard to tell the difference between vinyl and hi-res FLACs right now (except the vinyl is more fun, perhaps less ear fatigue, and the digital has crazy bass when needed).

Maybe play around with extreme VTA? Try shims on the cartridge if you need to?

Good luck!

 

[80sonvinyl]

I've heard hot records with crappy carts, and it doesn't matter how well they are set up, there will be noise and nasty IGD. Basically like the TFF video you posted upthread but much worse sounding. It comes down to the tracking and tracing limitations of the cartridge.

This is not going to be a problem on your set up, assuming you aligned the cartridge correctly.

If you want to increase performance you could put a KAB silicone damper on your turntable, as well as a more rigid, slightly heavier headshell. IME the 95ML works better with a headshell that is slightly heavier than stock on a Technics arm.

Thanks. In terms of distortion I imagine for a newbie it's really difficult to know if stuff is indeed a 'hot press' or just bad mastering in the first place, or groove wear. Just finished listening to Journeys to Glory by Spandau Ballet...man, side 2 is cut quite loud indeed (louder it seems than side 1) and had no problems apart from the odd annoying pop; it needs a clean.

I really don't see how I could better my setup. The stylus is 'bang on' with the overhang gauge, VTF and VTA are all taken care of, the table is level. That's why, if I have an issue, I'd be beginning to blame the turntable itself. So frustrating how I don't have another turntable to try these records on (sold my old AT a few months ago and regretting it since). I have tried some in HiFi shops but you know yourself, you don't really have the peace to intently listen for stuff that you'd have at home or in a friend's house.

 

[Tiver]

Vinyl as a medium of choice is all well and good, but if the expectation that vinyl (even new in shrink) will be the best listen for a particular recording, there will be disappointment ahead.

Some records just aren't great. Last night my son's friend brought over the 2009 MOFI release of Little Feat "Sailin' Shoes". I would say it sounded a bit thin. I have a much earlier regular reissue, but did not compare yet. I have listened many, many times to the standard issue CD and have never thought of it as thin. (my def of thin : lacking a fullness with bass slightly wanting and treble encroaching upon the area where listener fatigue resides)

He also had a copy of Stevie Ray Vaughn's "In Step" (Music on Vinyl release). There were several short blips of distortion on , Riviera Paradise, but the recording as a whole was very open. The decay on the shimmer of cymbals was very nice, SRV's guitar was spot on and the low end of the drums were full and distinct. Still, there was some slight distortion once and a while.

I have a copy I purchased new of Tedeschi Trucks Band "Revalator" which plays beautifully. Oddly the first play I caught a little distortion and was going to try and return it, but I'd had it for several months unopened. I haven't noticed any distortion on subsequent plays. I will have to write it off to either a dirty stylus or even possibly a little gunk (release agent?) in the groove.

My journey playing records goes back to the 70's. IGD has rarely been an issue, but I am well aware that not all vinyl is going to sound great. Lackluster engineering/mastering and poor pressings are not too difficult to come across, and used, while I have had great luck, are never a for sure until played.

If you are going to be more often listening with headphones you will absolutely want to have the most diligent cleaning and care regimen possible for both records and stylus.

 

[80sonvinyl]

The pops and crackles are from the stylus tip losing contact with the groove wall and slamming back against it. Assuming there aren't defects in the pressing, this happens because the modulations of the groove are so extreme that the stylus can't follow them, and it ends up bouncing around in the groove. This can be because of bad setup, a mass/compliance mismatch (which you should not have,) or in the most extreme cases, because the cartridge is being pushed beyond it's physical limitations.

OK, thanks, as you say I doubt it's compliance mismatch- many use my TT/TA/Cart combo. What exactly do you mean by the cart being pushed beyond it's limitations? I can't imagine this being the case either. Would misalignment cause this 'bouncing'? Again, if the Technics gauge has any credibility, this shouldn't be the case either. If it's not a bad pressing, surely this just leaves the turntable as the possible source?

 

[patient_ot]

Thanks. In terms of distortion I imagine for a newbie it's really difficult to know if stuff is indeed a 'hot press' or just bad mastering in the first place, or groove wear. Just finished listening to Journeys to Glory by Spandau Ballet...man, side 2 is cut quite loud indeed (louder it seems than side 1) and had no problems apart from the odd annoying pop; it needs a clean.

I really don't see how I could better my setup. The stylus is 'bang on' with the overhang gauge, VTF and VTA are all taken care of, the table is level. That's why, if I have an issue, I'd be beginning to blame the turntable itself. So frustrating how I don't have another turntable to try these records on (sold my old AT a few months ago and regretting it since). I have tried some in HiFi shops but you know yourself, you don't really have the peace to intently listen for stuff that you'd have at home or in a friend's house.

If you have a new 1500C the chances of it being the TT that is the problem is slim to zero.

You can easily tell if a record is cut hot by first looking at the grooves to see how close they are to the labels.

Take record that is cut at a lower level, put that on, adjust volume. Then put on the "hot" record. If you need to turn the volume down to comfortably listen you know it's a hot cut.

Nowadays I can tell instantly if something is cut hot, especially if I look at the deadwax and see the sig of a certain mastering engineer or house and the deadwax is very narrow.

 

[80sonvinyl]

Vinyl as a medium of choice is all well and good, but if the expectation that vinyl (even new in shrink) will be the best listen for a particular recording, there will be disappointment ahead.

Some records just aren't great. Last night my son's friend brought over the 2009 MOFI release of Little Feat "Sailin' Shoes". I would say it sounded a bit thin. I have a much earlier regular reissue, but did not compare yet. I have listened many, many times to the standard issue CD and have never thought of it as thin. (my def of thin : lacking a fullness with bass slightly wanting and treble encroaching upon the area where listener fatigue resides)

He also had a copy of Stevie Ray Vaughn's "In Step" (Music on Vinyl release). There were several short blips of distortion on , Riviera Paradise, but the recording as a whole was very open. The decay on the shimmer of cymbals was very nice, SRV's guitar was spot on and the low end of the drums were full and distinct. Still, there was some slight distortion once and a while.

I have a copy I purchased new of Tedeschi Trucks Band "Revalator" which plays beautifully. Oddly the first play I caught a little distortion and was going to try and return it, but I'd had it for several months unopened. I haven't noticed any distortion on subsequent plays. I will have to write it off to either a dirty stylus or even possibly a little gunk (release agent?) in the groove.

My journey playing records goes back to the 70's. IGD has rarely been an issue, but I am well aware that not all vinyl is going to sound great. Lackluster engineering/mastering and poor pressings are not too difficult to come across, and used, while I have had great luck, are never a for sure until played.

If you are going to be more often listening with headphones you will absolutely want to have the most diligent cleaning and care regimen possible for both records and stylus.

Yeah. I suppose if I had a collection of hundreds of records like many do, I wouldn;t be getting so caught up on the odd bad LP. But I've only 50 or so records so the good to bad ratio is a lot more close, if you know what I mean. This leads me to question things and just not enjoy my records. Even with a record I know well, I'm terrified playing it nowadays in case I hear anything off. Headphones in theory sounded like a good idea but in practise just make you super sensitive.
My latest theory is that my TT for whatever reason, can't cope with loud pressings. This is possibly BS...it may not even be possible, but there you go!
I am super careful about cleaning, many of my records get washed regularly with a spin clean. Stylus brushed after every LP played, and an antistat brush used before I play each side.

 

[patient_ot]

OK, thanks, as you say I doubt it's compliance mismatch- many use my TT/TA/Cart combo. What exactly do you mean by the cart being pushed beyond it's limitations? I can't imagine this being the case either. Would misalignment cause this 'bouncing'? Again, if the Technics gauge has any credibility, this shouldn't be the case either. If it's not a bad pressing, surely this just leaves the turntable as the possible source?

None of this is a problem in your case, so don't worry about it. I use the same cart on a very similar tonearm and have checked the resonance - there is no compliance mismatch so forget about that. The cart also tracks up to 90um and traces inner grooves very well.

Your main problem, as I have been telling you for a long time now, is groove wear. When you have hot records from the 80s, and they are played on junk equipment or worn styli by the previous owners, the inner grooves are the first to go.

Cutting inner grooves is also an inherent challenge that has to do with very real limitations of the vinyl format. You can read more about that here:

http://recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm

It was written by one of the most highly regard LP cutting engineers around, so he knows what he's talking about.

Key passage:

Let’s take a look at cymbals and vocal sibilance (those loud ‘S’ sounds). "Why", do you ask, "Do they sound OK on the tape but sometimes so awful on the record?" The answer is twofold. First, the problem is aggravated by the high frequency boost we just discussed. Further excessive boost in your mix makes it that much worse. Unlike a cymbal crash in which the impulse is short (the actual hit of the stick on the cymbal), the duration of an ‘S’ is considerably longer, so it is even more pronounced. And second, the worst part: Remember the river? Suppose the river’s twists and turns are actually tighter than your raft? Ever watch a raft attempting rapids? Well, that is exactly what your stylus is doing when it hits a loud cymbal crash or a loud ‘S’ in the record groove. At the instant that the curvature of the groove is tighter than the tip radius of your stylus (raft), it goes over instead of through ‘the rapids’, and you have 100 percent distortion. The higher the frequency and or level, the greater the curvature and distortion.

The cutting engineer can usually tell if treble peaks are going to ‘break up’ on playback, by the amount of current drawn by the cutting amplifier. This is measured by current meters on the amplifiers. If the current is excessive, the only way to prevent this is to use a very fast-attack treble limiter to reduce the intensity, and therefore, the groove curvature.

While we’re on the curvature subject, it is necessary to explain one more thing. Ever wonder why outside diameter cuts on a record sound clearer and cleaner than inside ones? Unfortunately it’s a fact. Why? The answer is geometry, curvature again. One turntable revolution at 33 1/3 rpm on an LP takes 1.8 seconds. That 1.8 seconds is spread over a circumference of 36 inches on the outside of the record. At the minimum allowable inside diameter that same 1.8 second revolution would only cover 14.9 inches. You can see from this, that a gentle wiggle spread over 36 inches would get quite ‘scrunched’ over 14.9 inches. A jagged groove at 36 inches would get really scrunched at 14.9 inches (remember the rapids). Excessive treble can even cause the cutting stylus to accelerate so fast that its back edge wipes out what the front edge just cut! It’s unfortunate, but treble rolls off, and distortion goes up as you approach the center of the record. It is quite gradual, but if you compare the source recording to the disc, this actually starts to become noticeable after the second cut or so. Any attempt to compensate for this by boosting the treble, only makes the problem worse (greater curvature remember).

 

[80sonvinyl]

If you have a new 1500C the chances of it being the TT that is the problem is slim to zero.

You can easily tell if a record is cut hot by first looking at the grooves to see how close they are to the labels.

Take record that is cut at a lower level, put that on, adjust volume. Then put on the "hot" record. If you need to turn the volume down to comfortably listen you know it's a hot cut.

Nowadays I can tell instantly if something is cut hot, especially if I look at the deadwax and see the sig of a certain mastering engineer or house and the deadwax is very narrow.

I have a Mike Oldfield record that I played yesterday- deadwax is incredibly thin and the record is super quiet.

I know, I'm terrible! I can only imagine how it must be like to be dealing with me

 

[patient_ot]

Yeah. I suppose if I had a collection of hundreds of records like many do, I wouldn;t be getting so caught up on the odd bad LP. But I've only 50 or so records so the good to bad ratio is a lot more close, if you know what I mean. This leads me to question things and just not enjoy my records. Even with a record I know well, I'm terrified playing it nowadays in case I hear anything off. Headphones in theory sounded like a good idea but in practise just make you super sensitive.
My latest theory is that my TT for whatever reason, can't cope with loud pressings. This is possibly BS...it may not even be possible, but there you go!
I am super careful about cleaning, many of my records get washed regularly with a spin clean. Stylus brushed after every LP played, and an antistat brush used before I play each side.

I have around 1500 LPs and more have come through my hands, more I gave way, heard on other's systems etc. You do have bad luck but you are also buying vinyl at the worst time in history and your experience is limited, so you are bound to get burned.

Ditch the headphones and get some speakers that aren't too revealing. Either that or get an EQ box for the HPs that will tame the high end a bit so you won't notice noise and flaws as much.