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Is a Phono Preamp better than regular Preamp??

S

SPOautos

Active Member
I'm planning on needing to move from a reciever that has phono (Sansui 5000a) to a amp to have the extra power for a pair of Vandersteen 2C speakers. I'm going to check out a BGW 750B later this week and probably going to pick it up.

Would a decent preamp (preferably vintage) that has good phono stage be just as good as a phono preamp?? Any thoughts on a vintage preamp that has a phono that sounds better than my Sansui 5000a phono stage?

Any suggestions?
 
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Built in phono stages of vintage 70's receivers are usually very mediocre. Good ones were nearly exclusively confined to TOTL integrated amps, not receivers. It got better in the 80's. Mfgr's didn't really care about it so much in the 70's. Just about any reputable mfgr's pre-amp with a designated phono stage, especially one provisioning for MC carts, will be an improvement.
 
Stands to reason that a separate phono pre-amp would likely be better than the pre-amp in most vintage receivers. In addition, the current crop of separates offer a wider range of adjustments to compensate for the various outputs and impedance of MM and MC cartridges. Unlikely you'll find a MC phono input on a vintage receiver.
 
tnsilver said:
Built in phono stages of vintage 70's receivers are usually very mediocre. Good ones were nearly exclusively confined to TOTL integrated amps, not receivers. It got better in the 80's. Mfgr's didn't really care about it so much in the 70's. Just about any reputable mfgr's pre-amp with a designated phono stage, especially one provisioning for MC carts, will be an improvement.
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Okay, so it sounds like 'generally speaking' that the order of quality would go this way.....phono in vintage recievers is typically bottom end of phono reproduction. Then some integrated amps phono sections may be a step up above recievers. Then a preamp that can handle MC is another step up. The a dedicated phono preamp is top choice.

Would there really be much difference between a quality 80's preamp that can handle MC versus a dedicated phono preamp? It seems like they would probably be very similar.

I mean, it's not like this is for a $20,000 system, but I do like instruments to sound very lifelike. Like a lot of jazz and blues. But this is a 'poor mans' build finding good deals on vintage equipment. Kenwood KD-550 turntable, BGW 750B (or a pto Yamaha P2250), Vandersteen 2C.

Any suggestions for a quality preamp that has a really great phono stage and with a little time can probably find a good deal on it? Something that may be as good as a dedicated phono preamp.
 
SPOautos said:
Okay, so it sounds like 'generally speaking' that the order of quality would go this way.....phono in vintage recievers is typically bottom end of phono reproduction. Then some integrated amps phono sections may be a step up above recievers. Then a preamp that can handle MC is another step up. The a dedicated phono preamp is top choice.
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Not meaning to insult, but to me, this is an air-sickness bag of nearly meaningless generalizations. Specific model recommendations with well-known reputations among audiophiles, going beyond "I just got mine and it's the BEST!!!" fan ravings, are a good way to shop when you can't listen for yourself. With vintage items, the particular example may matter, as some may be in better condition, not only in appearance but also in sound quality, than others.

There are lots of threads here and elsewhere about the relative merits of different preamps and phono preamps. I'd advise you to do some reading, and avoid making a hasty decision based on generalizations. IMO, the phono preamp or built-in phono stage is the most important piece of electronics in a vinyl system.
 
sqlsavior said:
Not meaning to insult, but to me, this is an air-sickness bag of nearly meaningless generalizations. Specific model recommendations with well-known reputations among audiophiles, going beyond "I just got mine and it's the BEST!!!" fan ravings, are a good way to shop when you can't listen for yourself. With vintage items, the particular example may matter, as some may be in better condition, not only in appearance but also in sound quality, than others.

There are lots of threads here and elsewhere about the relative merits of different preamps and phono preamps. I'd advise you to do some reading, and avoid making a hasty decision based on generalizations. IMO, the phono preamp or built-in phono stage is the most important piece of electronics in a vinyl system.
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Fair enough, I know it's a generalization and there are always exceptions. I'm really just trying to get a feel for if vintage preamps phone stage can keep up with a dedicated phono preamp.

I've read a lot, however the more I've read the more confusion sets in because you get a lot of conflicting opinion. So thought it may be best to just have a conversation with people about it.

I wish I could put in specific models but that may become overwhelming to you guys with there being a neverending list of comparisons.

But if you know of a few vintage preamp that have an exceptionally good phono stage that can keep up with a dedicated phono preamp let me know, and I'll keep my eye open for them! But no McIntosh, I cant afford anything with that name on it lol :)

I appreciate the feedback!
 
Some of the Yamaha Pre amps have excellent phono stages, Like the C-70, 75, 80 etc.
My Yamaha A-1 Integrated also has a nice sounding phono section. Having said that I plan to build a phono stage discussed
in one of the threads here. we'll see how it compares hopefully sometime this year.....tooooooo many projects. ;)

Nashou
 
It absolutely depends upon the phono preamp you are considering. The higher end separates are generally better than what you woud find in a vintage receiver, integrated amp or preamp. But being in a separate box most definitely does not assure this.

There are a lot of fairly pedestrian phono amps out there, coincident with the resurgence of vinyl that started 10-15 years ago. People needed a phono amp because their modern receivers did not include one, and the market responded with many "budget" units.

Some "vintage" integrated amps with very good to phono sections include the Yamaha A700 and A1000, the Optonica SM4545 and the Sansui AU919. They can all accommodate low output carts, and all but the Sansui offer some amount of variable loading.

I am sure there are many others, including some receivers...but these are units with which I am particularly familiar.
 
As you are seeing by the responses it all depends.
Your ears are not the ears of someone else. Your equipment is also not the same. The cart/stylus on your turntable as well as the tt itself all effect the sound.
It’s kind of a daunting task to find out what’s best for you, BUT, that’s the fun of this whole hobby/pastime.
But to answer your question, there are some integrated phonostages that some people love. For instance I always loved Marantz. Their phono stages get lots of attaboys and support. Integrated stages may get you by for a while and you may love them as I did. I’ve moved on from them because I wanted more. Separate phono stages allow you to find the sound you want. It can get darned expensive though. Find something that interests you and fits your budget and give it a try. If it doesn’t float your boat you can sell it and try another. Once you dive in and listen you’ll start to find your answers. It’s fun to do the research and gain understanding.
Good luck.
 
I'm presently using a McIntosh C24 preamp. Bottom of the barrel Mac according to a lot of people. But mine sounds amazing. It's restored, has 2 phono inputs, and I find it as good, or better, then any stand alone I've used. And I've tried many, the last one an Avid Pulsus that retailed for $1500.

I've also heard very good phono's in receivers from Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Harman Kardon and others. I really think it depends on the specific piece in question, and whether or not it's performing at it's best. But the 60's and 70's vinyl was still king, and even so called mid fi pieces from the period off phono's that IMO can be very competitive with a lot of stand alone modern one's.
 
I'm always on the lookout for a nice stand alone, but of the few I've tried, none have beat the phono stage in my little Kenwood KA-2002 integrated. I run it as a preamp into what has become a revolving door of vintage receivers, none of which have beat the Kenny for sheer quality of sound. Low noise floor, wide soundstage, dual phono inputs, sweet "Is that a CB receiver?" vintage looks, all in for less than a decent new record. I keep knocking on the door of jumping up to one of the big boy integrateds...but I'd probably keep using the Kenny just as a phono pre.
 
The phono stages in most vintage receivers are usually pretty alright, provided the receiver itself is in good fettle. However, from a purist perspective, a phono stage with adjustable gain/loading controls would be preferable.
 
SPOautos said:
But if you know of a few vintage preamp that have an exceptionally good phono stage that can keep up with a dedicated phono preamp let me know, and I'll keep my eye open for them! But no McIntosh, I cant afford anything with that name on it lol :)
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IME, an Apt-Holman preamp has an excellent phono stage, but it must be restored, yet still possess the original phono-stage transistors.
Luxman C1000 and C1010 preamps are excellent, but they are getting on in years as well. Phono A on mine is good but a little dark, but phono B is still neutral, perhaps due to less usage over the years?
A Hafler DH-110 is a little below these, but cheaper and likely to be fine, condition-wise.
 
Standalone phono stages run the gamut. There are some that are cheap and nasty with horrid performance (e.g. Pyle), some cheap stuff that works pretty good (e.g. Art DJ Pre), and ultra high-end stuff costing thousands of dollars with many points in between. What specifically are we comparing to this unknown piece of vintage gear?

Your question is way, way too general to answer with any usefulness.

You can go hunt for vintage amps, stereo preamps, power amps, etc. - just be aware that 40-50+ year old gear, especially that kind of stuff, often needs work and is loaded with components going out of spec or about to go out of spec. If you think you are hearing an un-serviced vintage receiver or amp at its very best you are dreaming. Often the repair bill can exceed the market value of the equipment - that is, if you can even find a good tech to work on it. The old techs are a dying breed and are retiring all the time. I live in a major city and have yet to find a decent one. Matter of fact I will be shipping a tape deck to a friend in another state so he can get his guy to work on it for me.
 
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I have a Kenwood Basic C2 that has a really good phono stage. It also has all the problems known to be endemic to the model, balance pot, unobtanium switches, etc. It's also had a lot of work done to restore it. Vintage CAN be really good, but you risk putting a lot of money and/or time into it. A stand-alone phono-pre can be crap, or schweet, depending on a variety of variables, not least of which is the rest of your gear. Price can be a fairly reliable indicator of build quality, as long as you have some familiarity with the brand.

In my opinion, most sub-$100 phono-pres are more similar than different in sound. Above $100, you begin to get more of what you think you're paying for, better sound quality as well as better build quality. But I think that between about $200 and $500 is where you'll notice the most difference in performance. Above that, and the improvements generally are noticeably more incremental....
 
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There are some good quality modern phono preamps that cost $100-200. Some are better than others, and you can certainly spend more money for even better ones.

Going off-topic (hope it's OK), the Vandersteen's are nice speakers but sensitive to setup. If you haven't already, got to the Vandersteen website and download the pdf manual, it has a good guide to placing them and setting the tilt angle - it makes a lot of difference (I'm speaking from experience with my 2ci's).
 
Thank you for all the feedback! Dont all of these phono products use the same equalization? (RIAA)

Do the standalone phono preamps have the same type of hardware as what would be in a preamp or reciever? Does it just come down to which has better quality parts but that all have a similar way of working and the same equilization?
 
Yes and no. Yes, just about every modern and post 1950's phono stages have RIAA.
No, there are some that don't have RIAA or have variable eq curves for playing 78's and pre-RIAA records. But these phono stages are rare and will be indicated as a specialty item.

The external phono stages will (/should) do the same job as the phono stages built into an amp. However, the designs to do this vary and the quality of the components used can vary. So one designed for lowest-cost production will use poor components and may not work to exact spec's/tolerances. Some phono stages have extremely simple circuits, others are complex. Some use discrete components, others use op-amps. Some designs have major flaws, others produce magic.
 
The RIAA equalization is easy. The hard part is designing a quiet power supply(the signal from a cartridge is a couple of thousandths of a volt, very small) as well as a quiet amplification stage, in the same unit. Good design AND quality parts make for a more expensive product.
 
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