Is a Phono Preamp better than regular Preamp??

[SPOautos]

The 5000A does well with 4 ohm loads. But what I'm reading between the lines here, is that you have read a lot about different equipment but not actually tried it. Please don't be offended if I am wrong. I think the obvious solution here is just trying things until you find what suits you. A stereo is a personal choice, and although some are better than others there is not one which is always the best all the time for all people.

I have a 5000A and I kept it, and sent my Adcom away, because I found it boring and sterile. But one man's boring and sterile is another man's realistic and dynamic.

Connecting a phono stage directly to an amp means you won't have a volume control or a means to select different sources. The preamp is the heart and control center of a stereo, and you probably shouldn't try and go without one so early on in your journey.

Finally, pleasing your wife is probably going to be a balancing act, because you usually either pay for looks or pay for performance or pay really a lot for both at the same time. Only you can decide which side of this line you want to compromise on.

Regarding vintage turntable system I'm trying to put together, I've tried nothing except what I currently own. I dont have a way to try much of anything and most things I'll have to either buy without hearing or hear it on someone else's equipment/room and cant really afford to buy multiples, I have to sell one to get the next. So yes, unfortunatly I am having to rely heavily on other opinions and descriptions and to get a general sense of direction.

On one hand I like the idea of trading my 5000a for a adcom 555ii because I dont have to come up with cash...on the other hand I'm scared I'll get home and not like it and wish I had the the 5000a lol.

For a amp, I was hoping it would just be 'clear' and the sound, imaging, soundstage, ect would come more from the turntable and preamp/phonoamp and speakers. I like resolution but not sterile....like you, I really enjoy the 5000a sound. Thought about looking at some kind of tube pre to go with the adcom 555ii but I'm very limited with the pre/phone pre with only about $200 to spend.

Oh, regarding running the phono pre directly...this is mostly only turntable. On occasion I plug my phone in to listen to some things but I dont mind swapping the cables on the occasion that I do that. I would need to make sure the amp has level controls....not worried much about tone controls. I would still want to get a preamp down the road so more of a temporary thing. But this system is mostly exclusively for turntable use.

 

[FluxT]

There’s simply a tradeoff between “vintage” and “ultimate performance”. Not saying that vintage equipment isn’t capable of incredible performance, but if you’re trying to get the ultimate in sound reproduction from strictly vintage components, be prepared to either shell out a loooot of money, or face the ugly truth that those plastic boxes might contain better technology.

If I were you, I’d put my $200 towards refurbishing and recapping my Sansui, assuming it hasn’t been recapped and refreshed yet. Those caps are old and tired, and some of the transistors have probably gotten noisy, effectively strangling the sound. I recently recapped my Harman Kardon 430, and the improvement in terms of soundstage and bass power was incredible. If it has been recapped, I’d hang on to it, and either get the best phono pre you can get <$200, or just enjoy it for it’s character. It’s a 50 watt cap coupled receiver-it’s gonna be a little wooly and rough around the edges, compared to later Direct Coupled units.

However, if you want something cheap, vintage, and with lots of resolution, check out Yamahas, like the CR-x00 or x20 series. They’ve got detail in spades, are beautifully constructed, and their phono sections are the cleanest I’ve ever heard in an old receiver. Really good instrument separation and low-level detail, although a bit lean and bright-not sure how it would pair up with Vandy’s. Again, recapping is key, but my CR-620 sounds wonderful in its original state, and I expect it to only get better after a recap.

Different cartridges/styli can also make a world of difference, and are also much easier to swap out than amps and speakers. I would consider them to be just as, if not more, important than the preamp. After all, it’s what turns those little wiggles on the record into an electrical signal! They all have their own preferences for loading and capacitance, and when they don’t match the preamp’s load, it can wreak havoc with the frequency response. It’s why some people love Shures and others say they sound boxy and dry, and others like Ortofons while others are reaching for paper towels trying to stop their ears from bleeding. For the most part, it doesn’t matter too much. No company in their right minds would sell a cartridge that sounded like ass on an average phono preamp like the one in your Sansui, but if you are going to go for an external preamp, be sure to find one with variable loading, so that you can fine tune it for optimal sound.


And don’t forget, garbage in, garbage out. There’s a lot of crap records out there. Old Beatles records made from nth generation master tapes, a first pressing of Dark Side of the Moon ground to death on a BSR changer, a Taylor Swift record that’s just an MP3 fed into a dubious cutter, etc. All the money and fretting in the world won’t make them sound any better (in fact, it might make it worse).

It pays to do your research on all of these, but at the end of the day, you’ll be happiest not diving too deep into any of these, and just enjoying what sounds like a superb system for all its strengths, charms, and flaws.

 

[mcgjohn]

for not a ton of money you can pick up one of the Doukmall EAR clone phono stages. Very good sounding. much better than any receiver phono stage I have heard, and better than most solid state preamp phono stages.

I used to rebuild the Apt holman pre amps. They can sound good but need a lot of work. the biggest weak spot in the tiny 12 watt transformer. Just replacing that with a 300-400 watter makes a huge difference. But as another poster noted, all the caps are due for replacement.

 

[charles 1973]

I've found the phono stages in my NAD preamp/Tuner, 2 Realistic stereo recievers and even 2 AVR'S were suitable for the kind of cartridge most people might use with these units.

We could probably do better, But for most folks I wouldn't worry about it

But we here on AK are not most folks, So it might be fun to try some outboard phono stages. They might very well sound different due to differing cartridge loading, Maybe better, maybe not.

 

[cadillacmike]

Yeah, go on, spout "nonsense" at reality. These "perfectly fine" and "enjoyable" remarks are objective impressions and this comment, nostalgic by nature, is oblivious to the low quality components and primordial designs of many 70's receivers phono stages. They're far from anything remotely perfect and are mostly sub par with even the mid-fi range of modern dedicated phono stages. I wonder if such a comment could even be made by someone with the sufficient background to realize the difference in performance between a 70's BA312 op-amp kit, not rare with 70's phono stages and a modern Burr-Brown OPA1656, not to mention noisy carbon resistors and cheap electrolytics purchased by the hundreds of thousands from the lowest bidder. It seems there's always someone needlessly getting offended at a hint their run of the mill 70's time capsule fails at some aspects to stand up, 4 decades later, to today's hardware, most of which didn't even exist back then. That's only natural - but it's the real nonsense too. If you think that era marked the pinnacle of vinyl audiophilia, think again. It was, for most, just the default playback media, taken for granted, and it was in a constant state of evolution. The general public didn't make a fuss about it and the manufacturers knew it. This changed in the 80's, but mostly changed with us here at the 2nd coming of vinyl resurrection.

Say what you will, but the Harman Kardon 930 and Micro Acoustics 830mp were certainly Not "run of the mill". They were both TOTL when introduced. As to the two phono inputs sharing only one stage, no issue here because I only have one TT. I have some original master recordings discs and the highs really come through in this setup.

 

[SPOautos]

for not a ton of money you can pick up one of the Doukmall EAR clone phono stages. Very good sounding. much better than any receiver phono stage I have heard, and better than most solid state preamp phono stages.

I used to rebuild the Apt holman pre amps. They can sound good but need a lot of work. the biggest weak spot in the tiny 12 watt transformer. Just replacing that with a 300-400 watter makes a huge difference. But as another poster noted, all the caps are due for replacement.

For this Douk EAR clone, does it sound as good as the original EAR? Is it really exactly the same internally and using high a quality internal parts?

 

[Evonimos]

This is probably a question, only those that have both can answer.
But I believe a proper (faithful) copy of the PCB can be made to sound great, even superior to the original, if populated with the right quality parts.

 

[bimasta]

I haven't read all comments; sorry.

I've had a couple of "newish" separate preamps: Phonomena, Lehman Black Cube, another I forget. But all dated from 10-15 years ago, so nothing recent. But have there been profound improvements at those price points (±$1K)?

I preferred, by far, phono sections included in my full fuction preamps. I'll name 2 I had at the time: Luxman CL-34 (all tube) and Luxman 5C50 (? not sure: their Reference series).

A stand-alone model loses the design effort and build quality of the power supplies in the bigger units. I used a AI CST 80 SUT for MC carts and the combos were
superb.

I have few receivers. I sold the vintage Pioneers and Marantzes. I have a Denon which dates from 1990; it has a great MM/MC stage, if not compared to the very best. I could easily live with it if I downgrade slightly: good tuner, good power amp with lots of watts. Feed it a good signal and it makes me smile.

 

[Evonimos]

It all depends on the circuit and the quality of parts.
A well designed circuit matched with the right parts will be very good, no matter where it is/comes from.

 

[KEB]

Standalone phono stages run the gamut. There are some that are cheap and nasty with horrid performance (e.g. Pyle), some cheap stuff that works pretty good (e.g. Art DJ Pre), and ultra high-end stuff costing thousands of dollars with many points in between. What specifically are we comparing to this unknown piece of vintage gear?

Your question is way, way too general to answer with any usefulness.

You can go hunt for vintage amps, stereo preamps, power amps, etc. - just be aware that 40-50+ year old gear, especially that kind of stuff, often needs work and is loaded with components going out of spec or about to go out of spec. If you think you are hearing an un-serviced vintage receiver or amp at its very best you are dreaming. Often the repair bill can exceed the market value of the equipment - that is, if you can even find a good tech to work on it. The old techs are a dying breed and are retiring all the time. I live in a major city and have yet to find a decent one. Matter of fact I will be shipping a tape deck to a friend in another state so he can get his guy to work on it for me.

I am very fortunate to have a friend and tech that has impeccable skills and is servicing my vintage amp as we speak. No charge if you can believe that. There certainly are good techs out there, and good people too!

 

[mcgjohn]

For this Douk EAR clone, does it sound as good as the original EAR? Is it really exactly the same internally and using high a quality internal parts?

the two are so close its not funny. Am not sure about the resistors, hard to tell who makes them. but sonically very close.

there are tons of upgrades you can do to the real EAR. (search for Yoshino EAR upgrades). These same can be applied to the doukmall.

as for the circuit, its an actual clone of the real thing. The Chinese board mfr even includes the Tim d P artwork in their copy.....see attached pic

I have upgraded both the real EAR and the Douk. both sound really good.

 

[mcgjohn]

forgot to add, the other phono pre that is a smoking deal is the China clone of the marantz 7 phono stage. they are normally available on Ebay for around 350 straight from China. Right now can't get one due to the virus issues, but once China starts running again they will come up. there are several available. the version with the 6X4 rectifier and completely shielded power trans is the one to get. it will perform right with the real EAR and the Doukmall EAR clone. see attached pics for ref.

 

[rothwellaudio]

the two are so close its not funny. Am not sure about the resistors, hard to tell who makes them. but sonically very close.

there are tons of upgrades you can do to the real EAR. (search for Yoshino EAR upgrades). These same can be applied to the doukmall.

as for the circuit, its an actual clone of the real thing. The Chinese board mfr even includes the Tim d P artwork in their copy.....see attached pic

I have upgraded both the real EAR and the Douk. both sound really good.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but in my opinion the Douk is theft of intellectual property.

 

[bimasta]

IThe Douk is theft of intellectual property.

Everyone loves a bargain. I see reviews right here on AK about clearly pirated components from China, and the owners rave about them, untroubled by the provenance. It would trouble me though. I guess it boils down to what's more important to you — SQ, or your character?

But increasingly I see currently accepted business practices so close to outright theft that the businessmen would've been strung up not so long ago. Now they're praised for being smart and successful, and accruing so much success (= money) so quickly.

25 years ago I had rich friends who admired me enormously for being a creative artist and living off the proceeds, and having the "guts" to do so: "I wish I had your courage." Now some of the same people say "If you're so talented, why aren't you rich?"

I see the day rapidly approaching that concepts like "character" and "intergrity" are quaintly "vintage" — "Honesty is back in style this week, so I rushed out and got the latest Moral Compass. So much cooler than my old one! It looks totally Retro but it points anywhere I want it to! Now that's progress!"

 

[mcgjohn]

no argument from me. The Douk is a real clone of the EAR, and patent and copy rights mean nothing in China.

Hence the DartZeel clone for 2300 vs. 20k for the real McCoy from Switzerland, the clones on the Jadis JP200 preamp, and on and on.

and a bit off topic but both the real EAR and the doukmall clone also make great tube tape playback amplifiers, with some minor changes to the EQ circuit.

 

[SPOautos]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but in my opinion the Douk is theft of intellectual property.

I'm not sure the specifics here but we are part of the clothing industry for boutique clothing and copies are rampant. What I see with China is its typically three scenarios....a US designer has it manufactured in China where the manufacturer then has the legal ability to use it themselves. Also another scenario is that a LOT of Chinese manufactures design products then US 'designers' buy them dirt cheap and rebrand it and mark it up 3x. Then trash the cheap versions as knockoffs....happening every day in every kind of consumer products. The only 'protection' is the word of the manufacture . And sometimes if it's your design they will agree not to sell it or maybe for a period of time like a couple years. Then of course there are those who really do just steal the idea and copy it...which I cant stand. But since I've dealt with having stuff made in China I've come to realize just how common it is that 'designers' arent really designing, just rebranding....but I'm not suggesting what happened in this case, I dont know.

 

[justjed2]

@mcgjohn, That Marantz box looks to be very well done, for the price point. I work in electronics, QC specifically, but built boards and assemblies for 20 years. That looks like acceptable build quality, from the pics, and I am pretty picky. If the power supply is done correctly, I'd imagine that unit probably would sound pretty good.

 

[mcgjohn]

thanks for the comments, but the build quality on the boards is decent the casework is well beyond acceptable. you are not going to find aluminum casework like that anywhere at that price point. counter sunk machine screws that actually line up, no tweeking the chassis to get the lid to fit.

Have been buying chinese audio gear for last 10 years on and off. the earlier gear you never knew if it would flame on with the magic smoke, or power on when you hit the AC switch. Those days are on gone. The newer stuff made in the last 2-3 years is all very well made.

 

[mcgjohn]

forgot to add, I also have several high end us mfg phono stages. the only one that handily beats the China made Marantz 7 clone is the VTL TP 6.5 fully loaded. but dont forget you need to move the decimal point over a few times for that unit. and the the top cover on the VTL is not as well made as the lid on the Marantz 7 clone.

Anyway, one more pic of the doukmall all apart with upgrades being installed. Case on the douk comes apart pretty easily. the only thing the potential modder has to worry about is the volume control and power knobs on the front. Those are glued on aluminum covers over the plastic (nylon?) switch mechanism. remove very carefully and take your time while doing so. after that , the rest is a breeeze.

also on any phono stage, replace those stock loading resistors with Vishay bulk foil. does not matter if you are using LOMC, or MM cart, will help both a ton.

 

[mcgjohn]

and for those interested, here is the mod schematic for the EAR and the Douk

and if you really want to get nuts, with either build a tube power supply.