Is a Phono Preamp better than regular Preamp??

[AudioFeline]

Some of those Chinese tube amps are regarded as being quite reasonable.
However, some are poorly designed and cheaply made, and some fail quite soon.
If you are considering going down this route, do research, there are lots of reports online.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I like the Carvers when they work, but those early ones have issues. Plug in boards which don't make good contact after the years. Many techs don't even want to work on them as they can be effected by rough shipping, heck even gentle shipping.

A less expensive way to lesson power supply issues is by using battery power. Many of the less expensive Phono amp use wall warts and they will tell you how many volts DC they put out. It is not hard to make a battery pack to power a phono amp.

I have used a number of modified phono amps that were modified and used a battery to power them and they were quite good. I also own a SOTA head amp, and it uses batteries.

 

[SPOautos]

There’s always something better.
Budget is usually the deciding factor.

Isnt that the truth....I suppose the game is just trying to figure out what's the best thing within the available budget. Which in my case narrows things down considerably....but when theres 50 years worth of equipment possibilities it sure becomes hard to figure out what to do....especially when you cant afford to

I like the Carvers when they work, but those early ones have issues. Plug in boards which don't make good contact after the years. Many techs don't even want to work on them as they can be effected by rough shipping, heck even gentle shipping.

A less expensive way to lesson power supply issues is by using battery power. Many of the less expensive Phono amp use wall warts and they will tell you how many volts DC they put out. It is not hard to make a battery pack to power a phono amp.

I have used a number of modified phono amps that were modified and used a battery to power them and they were quite good. I also own a SOTA head amp, and it uses batteries.

Interesting....what is the setup for recharging the batteries??

 

[Ken Boyd]

Isnt that the truth....I suppose the game is just trying to figure out what's the best thing within the available budget. Which in my case narrows things down considerably....but when theres 50 years worth of equipment possibilities it sure becomes hard to figure out what to do....especially when you cant afford to


Interesting....what is the setup for recharging the batteries??

They last pretty long, on my SOTA I just replace them when they go dead. But you can buy rechargeable batteries at any Battery Plus and get a charger, just recharge the batteries when they get low.

Using batteries you eliminate the noise associated with power supplies.

 

[sachu888]

I'm always on the lookout for a nice stand alone, but of the few I've tried, none have beat the phono stage in my little Kenwood KA-2002 integrated. I run it as a preamp into what has become a revolving door of vintage receivers, none of which have beat the Kenny for sheer quality of sound. Low noise floor, wide soundstage, dual phono inputs, sweet "Is that a CB receiver?" vintage looks, all in for less than a decent new record. I keep knocking on the door of jumping up to one of the big boy integrateds...but I'd probably keep using the Kenny just as a phono pre.

Consider building this one http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=371889
You will definitely prefer this.

Regards
Sachin

 

[sachu888]

The RIAA equalization is easy. The hard part is designing a quiet power supply(the signal from a cartridge is a couple of thousandths of a volt, very small) as well as a quiet amplification stage, in the same unit. Good design AND quality parts make for a more expensive product.

You are right. A quiet supply is very much required to get the best out of phonostage. FM Omishra designed a very good power supply using LM317/337 regulators. It's as quiet as batteries. It's cheap too

Regards
Sachin

 

[sqlsavior]

There’s always something better.
Budget is usually the deciding factor.

Subjectively, according to personal preference, nothing could be truer.

Objectively, in terms of fidelity only, there is a hard limit - that of the recording being played. In terms of fidelity, that cannot be improved upon. So, people who imagine that it gets better and better the more you spend, in terms of fidelity, are simply wrong. It can't. Identical is as good as there is.

 

[Masonavenut]

Subjectively, according to personal preference, nothing could be truer.

Objectively, in terms of fidelity only, there is a hard limit - that of the recording being played. In terms of fidelity, that cannot be improved upon. So, people who imagine that it gets better and better the more you spend, in terms of fidelity, are simply wrong. It can't. Identical is as good as there is.

Of course you are correct. I was speaking in the context of this thread.
In my own case I’m very happy with the point I’ve gotten to of being able to hear the quality/difference of the recording. That’s a nice place to be.

 

[Thunderbox]

Denon PRA 1100 and 1200 had exceptional Phono stages. MC and MM also. Find a quieter one and I would
be surprised

 

[cadillacmike]

Nonsense. These machines were purpose-built to play records during that era, and a lot of the built-in phono stages are perfectly fine (even by today's standards) for incredibly enjoyable vinyl playback.

I agree. My Harman Kardon 930 was the best they they offered and it's two phono iputs are both fine and work well with the Dual 521 and MA 530 cart. It can't handle MC from what I know but I'll probably never get an MC cart.

I like your avatar pic!

 

[benricci]

I never said they were perfect, or even excellent. If you actually read what I wrote, I said they're perfectly fine for enjoyable playback. And they are. If your goal is to actually listen to music and enjoy it, these machines will suit you just fine. If you'd rather spend your time analyzing specs, components and perceived increases in sound quality, have at it. I merely objected to the statement that all receivers from the 70's had "very mediocre" phono stages.

"Very mediocre" is the specific phrase I took issue with. That's still nonsense. Are they as amazing as some of today's phono stages? Nope, and I never said they were. But they're certainly still good enough to listen to and enjoy, if that's what you want to do.

I'm also not sure why you imply that I have any nostalgia for these units (again, given my VERY brief and narrowly-worded quote) as I wasn't even alive when most of these machines were made. If that makes my opinions any more or less valid than others, so be it, I suppose. Jeez...

 

[vinyl1]

Getting back to the original question, classic preamps from the 80s offer great value and are easy to work on and upgrade. Conrad-Johnson, Audio Research, Audible Illusions, and Convergent Audio Technologies all had very competitive phono stages. There is a pretty good supply of units in decent condition, so prices are relatively reasonable.

 

[maxhifi]

I think that the 1969 vintage Sansui 5000A is a perfectly decent old receiver, which is capable of perfectly acceptable performance. I have one in my living room, and I do enjoy it.

Yes, phono preamps can and do get a lot better, but so do amps, speakers, turntables, and cartridges, and without knowing your system it is hard to say if an arbitrary upgrade will be a good idea or not. And aside from sound quality, a lot (not all!) of old equipment is unreliable junk, which will be a headache to keep in working order.

If your 5000A is in good working order, and the F-1040 driver boards have been dealt with, I say just use it and be happy. If you start craving better, post your whole system and people on the forum will quickly zoom in on the weak link - which may well not be the Sansui.

 

[SPOautos]

I think that the 1969 vintage Sansui 5000A is a perfectly decent old receiver, which is capable of perfectly acceptable performance. I have one in my living room, and I do enjoy it.

Yes, phono preamps can and do get a lot better, but so do amps, speakers, turntables, and cartridges, and without knowing your system it is hard to say if an arbitrary upgrade will be a good idea or not. And aside from sound quality, a lot (not all!) of old equipment is unreliable junk, which will be a headache to keep in working order.

If your 5000A is in good working order, and the F-1040 driver boards have been dealt with, I say just use it and be happy. If you start craving better, post your whole system and people on the forum will quickly zoom in on the weak link - which may well not be the Sansui.

Its just a small turn table setup....kenwood KD550 turntable, Sansui 5000a, most likely swapping out my Large Advents for some Vandersteen 2c this weekend... which is the reason for considering the changes. Most people say the Vandersteens come alive with 150wpc so I'm planning to go with a amp and preamp setup. I have a lead on someone who will swap my 5000a for a Adcom 555ii amp...I am considering it. Then buy a preamp that has a great phono (preferably vintage)

Some of the preamps I know of for sale are NAD1300, Carver C1, Denon1100, Adcom 600 (but no phono on the 600 so would need a phonopre too)

Also ran across a Dynaco 400 amp with Par4....they look soooooo good, but they get SO many mixed reviews.

 

[Kevin D]

If you are going vintage you may want to add the Apt Holman Preamp to your list. Great Phono stage.

 

[4-2-7]

Looks like polystyrene capacitors in the RIAA eq section. Polystyrene are probably the best for low distortion. Unfortunately, they're not so easy to come by theses days. I'm not even sure they're still manufactured.
I suppose that's something in favour of vintage gear, when they used polystyrene.

In the photo I posted, they also put Ferrite Beads on the phono input leads, bottom right corner.


The rest of the preamp



The separate power supply

 

[4-2-7]

Its just a small turn table setup....kenwood KD550 turntable, Sansui 5000a, most likely swapping out my Large Advents for some Vandersteen 2c this weekend... which is the reason for considering the changes. Most people say the Vandersteens come alive with 150wpc so I'm planning to go with a amp and preamp setup. I have a lead on someone who will swap my 5000a for a Adcom 555ii amp...I am considering it. Then buy a preamp that has a great phono (preferably vintage)

Some of the preamps I know of for sale are NAD1300, Carver C1, Denon1100, Adcom 600 (but no phono on the 600 so would need a phonopre too)

Also ran across a Dynaco 400 amp with Par4....they look soooooo good, but they get SO many mixed reviews.

I think your looking and thinking in the right direction.
The KD550 is a good table to build apon, you can step up on arms and cartridges with that table. Yep I'd start looking past the Sansui 5000a unless the low power is fine and you have it completely restored. But if you looking at hungry 80s speakers pass on the 5000 and start looking at separates that are very good and within your budget. I would look at Forte Audio over Adcom, Denon, Nad, carver is good but can get pricy, as is Bryson. Forte Audio I think give a lot for the money, another brand to look at is Acurus.

But anyway you can find gear like this with outstanding phono stages built in, or they might of had a separate stand alone stage designed for the system. You will be able within a brand line of separates pick a power amp in the area of 150 to 250 watts that will drive a far wider range of speakers than the 5000a

 

[maxhifi]

Its just a small turn table setup....kenwood KD550 turntable, Sansui 5000a, most likely swapping out my Large Advents for some Vandersteen 2c this weekend... which is the reason for considering the changes. Most people say the Vandersteens come alive with 150wpc so I'm planning to go with a amp and preamp setup. I have a lead on someone who will swap my 5000a for a Adcom 555ii amp...I am considering it. Then buy a preamp that has a great phono (preferably vintage)

Some of the preamps I know of for sale are NAD1300, Carver C1, Denon1100, Adcom 600 (but no phono on the 600 so would need a phonopre too)

Also ran across a Dynaco 400 amp with Par4....they look soooooo good, but they get SO many mixed reviews.

I personally think NAD and Carver vintage electronics are of dubious reliability at 30+ years old. I think you'd fare better with Adcom, and maybe with Denon, although neither will have the warmth of the old Sansui. The Sansui sound is something some people love, and want to stick with (check out the value of their bigger stuff!)

The best advice I can offer is listen to the equipment before you buy it.

I agree I'd pass on that Dynaco, however if you run into a PAS3 and an ST70 you better get those!

 

[SPOautos]

I personally think NAD and Carver vintage electronics are of dubious reliability at 30+ years old. I think you'd fare better with Adcom, and maybe with Denon, although neither will have the warmth of the old Sansui. The Sansui sound is something some people love, and want to stick with (check out the value of their bigger stuff!)

The best advice I can offer is listen to the equipment before you buy it.

I agree I'd pass on that Dynaco, however if you run into a PAS3 and an ST70 you better get those!

I do like my 5000a and the sound....BUT at the end of the day, what I'm really reaching for (but probably cant attain on my poor mans budget lol) is realism. I love live instruments and it bothers me to hear a bass guitar that just sounds like a bass note or sound vs a stringed instrument, same with cymbals. But while I want that resolution that gives it that realistic 'texture' I dont like it to be so bright that Miles Davis' trumpet makes me clench up and squint my eyes lol. Dangit, I want to feel like I'm in the recording studio listening to then play....on a poor mans budget hahaha.

I had decided first to swap to different speakers and feel like Vandersteen 2c are about the best I can do in my budget.

But feel like with those speakers I need to swap from the 5000a...to 'something' with over 100wpc that likes running 4ohm thats just 'clear' and quiet (may trade my 5000a for an Adcom 555ii )

and a pre with the best phono stage I can find for like $200....or a awesome phono pre and hook it right up to amp. I dont care about tone controls and such...I just need to make sure the amp has volume controls.

Lastly, my wife is sick of black electronic boxes in the living room and I sold this turntable idea to her by saying "vintage" and "lots of character" and "interesting looking". I at least need the pre/phono pre to look the vintage part lol. I kind of like the idea of these new tube pre's that are cheap but I don't know....I love vintage stuff like 60's and 70's and they arent vintage.

 

[maxhifi]

I do like my 5000a and the sound....BUT at the end of the day, what I'm really reaching for (but probably cant attain on my poor mans budget lol) is realism. I love live instruments and it bothers me to hear a bass guitar that just sounds like a bass note or sound vs a stringed instrument, same with cymbals. But while I want that resolution that gives it that realistic 'texture' I dont like it to be so bright that Miles Davis' trumpet makes me clench up and squint my eyes lol. Dangit, I want to feel like I'm in the recording studio listening to then play....on a poor mans budget hahaha.

I had decided first to swap to different speakers and feel like Vandersteen 2c are about the best I can do in my budget.

But feel like with those speakers I need to swap from the 5000a...to 'something' with over 100wpc that likes running 4ohm thats just 'clear' and quiet (may trade my 5000a for an Adcom 555ii )

and a pre with the best phono stage I can find for like $200....or a awesome phono pre and hook it right up to amp. I dont care about tone controls and such...I just need to make sure the amp has volume controls.

Lastly, my wife is sick of black electronic boxes in the living room and I sold this turntable idea to her by saying "vintage" and "lots of character" and "interesting looking". I at least need the pre/phono pre to look the vintage part lol. I kind of like the idea of these new tube pre's that are cheap but I don't know....I love vintage stuff like 60's and 70's and they arent vintage.

The 5000A does well with 4 ohm loads. But what I'm reading between the lines here, is that you have read a lot about different equipment but not actually tried it. Please don't be offended if I am wrong. I think the obvious solution here is just trying things until you find what suits you. A stereo is a personal choice, and although some are better than others there is not one which is always the best all the time for all people.

I have a 5000A and I kept it, and sent my Adcom away, because I found it boring and sterile. But one man's boring and sterile is another man's realistic and dynamic.

Connecting a phono stage directly to an amp means you won't have a volume control or a means to select different sources. The preamp is the heart and control center of a stereo, and you probably shouldn't try and go without one so early on in your journey.

Finally, pleasing your wife is probably going to be a balancing act, because you usually either pay for looks or pay for performance or pay really a lot for both at the same time. Only you can decide which side of this line you want to compromise on.