Is Rock and Roll Dead???

[JohnVF]

I mean after 1966 or so, not disco. And I'm speaking of dances, not music. Stuff like the fly, the hully-gully, the locomotion, etc.

Every request from you comes with a stipulation so that you don't lose that argument. That's what people meant by "contrarian".

If I gave you a specific dance (Gangnam Style) you'd say "it's not rock". All the hipsters dance the same but it doesn't have a name, so you wouldn't count that. My ex took psychedelic go-go dancing lessons and the first song they did The Pony to was by C-Lo. But you wouldn't count that, because its an old dance to a new song. You simply want to be right, you don't want to learn a thing.

What about The Pogo. That's very much a PUNK thing, post '60s.

 

[KrisM]

Line dancing came on with disco, and was a separate phenomenon., though there was the stroll earlier on

Well, you could take it all the way back to traditional folk dances if you want.

 

[Scuzzer]

That's what people meant by "contrarian".

Is that some sort of euphemism for troll? He's got 58 posts in this thread.

I was going to post a link to a rockin' band called Trole, but I bet it wouldn't go over too well.

Good one.

 

[kneeOhFight]

Well, you could take it all the way back to traditional folk dances if you want.

As well as clogging, the dance of the inbred.

 

[Theo Simon]

You are defining "dancing" as narrowly as you are trying to define "rock 'n' roll." One of the things that rock 'n' roll did was break down the "rules" of what constituted "dancing." Anyone could get up on a dance floor and freely move to the music. You didn't have to conform to a particular defined "dance" like the ones you've named. I was a teenager in those years (graduated from HS in '73) and I went to plenty of school dances and there was plenty of dancing. I disagree that rock music suddenly was just "listening" music after '67. I went out a lot in the late '90s to listen to a bar band that I thought was really good. They played everything from Dion to Ozzie and they could pack the dance floor.

Well, not round these parts. Dancing moved to disco by 1974, and it was stuff like AWB (Pick up the Pieces) that people were dancing to, which I don't think anyone would consider rock n roll. People stopped dancing to rock n roll because rock n roll had died around 1967. They may have danced here and there, but it was nothing like what had gone before. The music was different and the dancing was different.

Look at movies made in the early to mid 1960s. From Beach Banket Bingo all the way to Blow-Up (the Yardbirds appear there). See how they are mostly not dancing to the Yardbirds (1966):

http://youtu.be/_zeza1xeWKM

On the other hand, see all the dancing in BBB:

http://youtu.be/Nk3ZN3dSeDk

That's because what the Yardbirds are playing is no longer rock n roll.

 

[JohnVF]

Well, not round these parts. Dancing moved to disco by 1974, and it was stuff like AWB (Pick up the Pieces) that people were dancing to, which I don't think anyone would consider rock n roll. People stopped dancing to rock n roll because rock n roll had died around 1967. They may have danced here and there, but it was nothing like what had gone before. The music was different and the dancing was different.

You are completely misinformed about kids dancing to rock and roll. How do I know this? "Cuase I was a club kid in the late '90s early '00s that frequented mod/soul/indie clubs in LA, that played danceable rock from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, 00's and still plays current music, mixing everything from Brit Pop (you most certainly can dance to Pulp), mod, mod revival, old soul, new soul, new rock, you name it . That same scene is all over Chicago, it was in smaller towns like Richmond. It's in Milwaukee even. You have no idea. I brought in the New Year at the Windy City Soul Review, basically a hipster dance party, and that same group can be found dancing to English '80s or something current like Hot Chip elsewhere around town.

Kids these days have one thing going for them. They don't give a rat's ass about the limitations of genre-snobbery that previous indie kids did.

 

[Theo Simon]

You are completely misinformed about kids dancing to rock and roll. How do I know this? "Cuase I was a club kid in the late '90s early '00s that frequented mod/soul/indie clubs in LA, that played danceable rock from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, 00's and still plays current music, mixing everything from Brit Pop (you most certainly can dance to Pulp), mod, mod revival, old soul, new soul, new rock, you name it . That same scene is all over Chicago, it was in smaller towns like Richmond. It's in Milwaukee even. You have no idea. I brought in the New Year at the Windy City Soul Review, basically a hipster dance party, and that same group can be found dancing to English '80s or something current like Hot Chip elsewhere around town.

Kids these days have one thing going for them. They don't give a rat's ass about the limitations of genre-snobbery that previous indie kids did.

What you are talking about then seems to be some isolated revivals. But the beginning of the end of rock n roll as it had been was Sgt Pepper. From then on, it was all downhill. Listen to some early Rolling Stones, and then compare that stuff to later things. Big difference. The simplistic rock n roll of the late 50s to mid 60s was gone forever (though of course people can still play Johnny Be Good), but as a social phenomenon it died off with the Beatles. When groups like the Doors and the San Francisco groups started going, the music scene was changed forever. You can't really dance to Jefferson Airplane's White Rabbit; it's for listening.

When rock n roll died, what is called 'hard rock' was born, and it is an entirely different animal. 'Hard rock' is nothing like rock n roll.

 

[JohnVF]

What you are talking about then seems to be some isolated revivals. But the beginning of the end of rock n roll as it had been was Sgt Pepper. From then on, it was all downhill. Listen to some early Rolling Stones, and then compare to later things. Big difference.

NO, its not isolated. Do you know what a hipster is? They dance. They all do. Its not good dancing. But they get drunk and dance with themselves. Have you seen Quadrophenia? That scene where all the mods are dancing at a club in Brighton? These places look like that. That is not isolated. THat is a lot of people dancing. Young people get drunk and dance, they always have and always will.

They're not dancing to Jefferson Airplane. There's whole genres of music you're leaving out, whole movements. The punks danced. The mod revivalists danced. The new wavers danced. The goths danced. The electroclash kids danced. The darkwave kids danced. The glitch-pop kids danced. The indie kids danced. They all danced.

 

[dumptruck]

I'm sorry but Theo has demonstrated very poor knowledge of 20th century music history repeatedly in this thread, and really just needs to be ignored unless you feel like playing teacher to someone that doesn't want to learn.

 

[Theo Simon]

NO, its not isolated. Do you know what a hipster is? They dance. They all do. Its not good dancing. But they get drunk and dance with themselves. Have you seen Quadrophenia? That scene where all the mods are dancing at a club in Brighton? These places look like that. That is not isolated. THat is a lot of people dancing. Young people get drunk and dance, they always have and always will.

They're not dancing to Jefferson Airplane. There's whole genres of music you're leaving out, whole movements. The punks danced. The mod revivalists danced. The new wavers danced. The goths danced. The electroclash kids danced. The darkwave kids danced. The glitch-pop kids danced. The indie kids danced. They all danced.

I remember going to a club called Crazy Mamma's on the OSU campus around 1981, with some very hip friends. It was where the hip people went. There was no dancing to the music being played. In fact I was kind of surprised at that. They were just standing around in a sort of torpid stupor.

I went dancing a lot in the mid 1970s, but the music was not rock n roll. That's my point. It didn't exist anymore. AWB is not rock n roll at all.

Rock n roll was a specific kind of music that existed between roughly 1956 and 1966 that was for dancing (Bill Haley et al.). Hard rock, though similar in name, has nothing in common with it. The thread name is 'Is Rock n Roll dead?' and the answer is of course yes. Groups like Jefferson Airplane were not playing 'rock n roll' but hard rock and ballads.

 

[btlefn1]

1984:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMekATnLPmM

 

[Theo Simon]

I'm sorry but Theo has demonstrated very poor knowledge of 20th century music history repeatedly in this thread, and really just needs to be ignored unless you feel like playing teacher to someone that doesn't want to learn.

Ahem...I was there and know all about it.

 

[tejas]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did you have to remind us? AAAGGGHHHHH!!!!

 

[Theo Simon]

1984:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMekATnLPmM

Not sure what you are getting at here. This is disco-ish stuff. Not like Little Richard or Bill Haley.

 

[btlefn1]

Not sure what you are getting at here. This is disco-ish stuff.

I could have predicted this response. Again, you're defining rock 'n' roll too narrowly.

 

[steelglam]

My argument is that 'rock n roll' died with the dancing, around the late 1960s. The Beatles were largely responsible for this.

And the rest of us are arguing that the dancing actually did not stop in the late 1960s. People still danced to rock and roll after that, and they still do now.

So you were there in the late 50s dancing. Great, excellent. Have you been dancing at a rock and roll club in, say, the last twenty years? Just because you no longer frequent rock and roll clubs does not mean the genre or the dancing stopped.

And you're also over-essentializing the role of scripted, specific dances. It's not like every rock song in the 50s and early 60s had a specific, scripted dance that went with it. There were some songs that did, and others did not. People also danced freestyle to songs.

 

[Theo Simon]

I could have predicted this response. Again, you're defining rock 'n' roll too narrowly.

Not at all. I am trying to distinguish the various kinds of popular music. It's not all rock n roll by a long shot. Look again at the scene from Blow-Up with the Yardbirds. It's so much different from the scene with Bill Haley and the Comets scene that it's not even funny. Bill Haley is rock n roll. The Yardbirds were not.

 

[Theo Simon]

And the rest of us are arguing that the dancing actually did not stop in the late 1960s. People still danced to rock and roll after that, and they still do now.

So you were there in the late 50s dancing. Great, excellent. Have you been dancing at a rock and roll club in, say, the last twenty years? Just because you no longer frequent rock and roll clubs does not mean the genre or the dancing stopped.

And you're also over-essentializing the role of scripted, specific dances. It's not like every rock song in the 50s and early 60s had a specific, scripted dance that went with it. There were some songs that did, and others did not. People also danced freestyle to songs.

Dancing nowadays is at 'dance clubs', and the music is not rock n roll. I have been to dance clubs as recently as 2009 (I hurt my back in 2010, unfortunately), and have danced (at age 59!) and my dancing was well received by the witnesses. Dancing was much less popular for a while (say 1968-1974), then came back with disco. The music was completely different from rock n roll. How would you categorize AWB's Pick up the Pieces? To me, it is not rock n roll. It's Funk, I believe. If you want to call that rock n roll we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, that's what they are called in the Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_White_Band

Soul, Funk, R&B are all different from rock n roll.

 

[steelglam]

Dancing nowadays is at 'dance clubs', and the music is not rock n roll. I have been to clubs recently, and have danced (at age 59!) and my dancing was well received by the witnesses.

Then you're not going to the right kinds of clubs. People still dance to rock and roll. They also dance to other forms of music. But they still dance to rock and roll.

My new favorite argument from you is that hard rock is not rock and roll. It literally has the term "rock" in the title. And it's not just for some separate, unrelated reason. It is a form of rock and roll.

You are way too hung up on genre and subgenre distinctions and divisions. Which is the death-knell of any good music.

Also...if you are 59 years old, that means you were 2 years old in 1955. So, your claim about hating the music on the charts in 1955 and going to sock hops shortly thereafter is also complete and utter bullshit. You were not listening to the charts and knowing what the hell was going on when you were 2 years old. And the oldest you could have been in the late 50s is 6 years old. So, you were going to sock hops in kindergarten or preschool? Bullshit.

 

[Theo Simon]

Then you're not going to the right kinds of clubs. People still dance to rock and roll. They also dance to other forms of music. But they still dance to rock and roll.

My new favorite argument from you is that hard rock is not rock and roll. It literally has the term "rock" in the title. And it's not just for some separate, unrelated reason. It is a form of rock and roll.

You are way too hung up on genre and subgenre distinctions and divisions. Which is the death-knell of any good music.

No, they are not the same at all. The nomenclature is confusing, I admit, but they are not at all the same. Nobody had any better name for it so they just recycled the old name. 'Hard rock' is not by any stretch of the imagination rock n roll. The rhythms are completely different. You can't compare Comfortably Numb to Rock Around the Clock or Stairway to Heaven to Tutti Fruiti.