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Is Rock and Roll Dead???

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If we start trying to define "jazz," we will be heading down a rabbit hole w/ no return where magical elves will reveal how one dances to "White Rabbit."
 
KeninDC said:
If we start trying to define "jazz," we will be heading down a rabbit hole w/ no return where magical elves will reveal how one dances to "White Rabbit."
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That's why I refuse to take up that issue. First of all, I don't know much about it, and secondly, my taste runs rather to ECM music, which is a category all its own.
 
I just put some stuff into Google Trends to see if there was anything amusing to be found with rock-related terms. There was not, but I did learn that since 2004, interest in jazz peaks every spring, and reggae every summer.
 
Theo Simon said:
That's why I refuse to take up that issue. First of all, I don't know much about it, and secondly, my taste runs rather to ECM music, which is a category all its own.
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Much of the European scene lacks the blues derivative, aside from that it's most certainly jazz. The Europeans were more receptive to progressive jazz back in the 50's and 60's than Americans ever were. This is why so many ex-pats living in Europe were African American jazz musicians.

Some traditional/mainstream jazz fans call Euro jazz "Art Music", anything to not have to acknowledge it as jazz.

It's a debate which has been raging since jazz began branching out both geographically and stylistically. The bottom line is that jazz tends to be a real personal type of music, with subjective meanings.

As for The Beatles killing rock, can't say I agree. Bottom line on rock n roll is that it's creators still today don't get the recognition they deserve.
 
poppachubby said:
Much of the European scene lacks the blues derivative, aside from that it's most certainly jazz. The Europeans were more receptive to progressive jazz back in the 50's and 60's than Americans ever were. This is why so many ex-pats living in Europe were African American jazz musicians.

Some traditional/mainstream jazz fans call Euro jazz "Art Music", anything to not have to acknowledge it as jazz.

It's a debate which has been raging since jazz began branching out both geographically and stylistically. The bottom line is that jazz tends to be a real personal type of music, with subjective meanings.

As for The Beatles killing rock, can't say I agree. Bottom line on rock n roll is that it's creators still today don't get the recognition they deserve.
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Too much of ECM is nothing at all like the traditional 'jazz' that I know of, for it to be called 'jazz', unless you expand the term to meaninglessness. Is Kenny G's music 'jazz'?

A lot of ECM stuff would be better classified under 'world music'.
 
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poppachubby said:
Much of the European scene lacks the blues derivative, aside from that it's most certainly jazz. The Europeans were more receptive to progressive jazz back in the 50's and 60's than Americans ever were. This is why so many ex-pats living in Europe were African American jazz musicians.

Some traditional/mainstream jazz fans call Euro jazz "Art Music", anything to not have to acknowledge it as jazz.

It's a debate which has been raging since jazz began branching out both geographically and stylistically. The bottom line is that jazz tends to be a real personal type of music, with subjective meanings.

As for The Beatles killing rock, can't say I agree. Bottom line on rock n roll is that it's creators still today don't get the recognition they deserve.
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The Beatles killed rock n roll by transcending it and transforming it.
 
Theo Simon said:
Too much of ECM is nothing at all like the traditional 'jazz' that I know of, for it to be called 'jazz', unless you expand the term to meaninglessness. Is Kenny G's music 'jazz'?

A lot of ECM stuff would be better classified under 'world music'.
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Funny, a few posts ago you told us the jazz that you "know of", consists of Kind Of Blue and nothing else. I think it's fair to say that you should digress back to your original stance. Yes, ECM does infact have music which isn't jazz, but the majority of their catalogue contains modern and contemporary jazz. Kind Of Blue was made in 1959, a year which for many signified the end of the old guard. Miles and Ornette Coleman took it into modal which blossomed into avante and all kinds of other directions. They in turn influenced the classically trained Euro cats...

Is Kenny G jazz? Of course he is, although he plays pop music as well. There is room for everyone under the jazz tree, even though some of them may be corny, sell out muthafiggaz.
 
poppachubby said:
Funny, a few posts ago you told us the jazz that you "know of", consists of Kind Of Blue and nothing else. I think it's fair to say that you should digress back to your original stance. Yes, ECM does infact have music which isn't jazz, but the majority of their catalogue contains modern and contemporary jazz. Kind Of Blue was made in 1959, a year which for many signified the end of the old guard. Miles and Ornette Coleman took it into modal which blossomed into avante and all kinds of other directions. They in turn influenced the classically trained Euro cats...

Is Kenny G jazz? Of course he is, although he plays pop music as well. There is room for everyone under the jazz tree, even though some of them may be corny, sell out muthafiggaz.
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I have heard lots of classic 'jazz' by accident (playing in record shops and bookstores, etc.), so I am familiar with it in that way, but I don't know Coletrane from Coleman. I have a couple of Chris Botti records; one has the singer from The Blue Nile on it (that's why I bought it). The other was a gift and I don't even know where it is.

What is The Blue Nile, in your classification scheme? Jazz? Progressive? Rock n roll? New Wave? A Walk Across the Rooftops has finally been remastered and I received it today in the mail.
 
Theo Simon said:
The Beatles killed rock n roll by transcending it and transforming it.
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That's your opinion, but as far as I'm concerned you're way off base. Rock was but an infant child when the Beatles took it up - of course it transformed. Rock craved transformation, it needed transformation. The thing is, I'm not too sure it was The Beatles who were really responsible. In alot of ways, they were followers - but once they took up something, they knew how to make it theirs. First it was the influence of the REAL first wave of rock from the Chitlin circuit, then onto the influence of Bob Dylan.

As far as transcending it, I'm not sure how that would kill rock.

The Beatles were great man, and Lennon/McCartney could write like no others. Even the great black artists of the day had real respect for them, covering their tunes and such.

To me the idea of discussing The Beatles as anything negative to rock is a waste of energy. How about discussing some of the REAL rock rebels who created rock and were then robbed of their glory?!?! Once rock shifted from the golden age of the indy labels to the majors, it could be said that it was killed.

And how about the "genius" of the Beach Boys, stealing the exact melody and vocal patterns for Surfing USA?? Let me guess, you don't know who or where they got it do ya? Now that's a discussion...
 
Theo Simon said:
I have heard lots of classic 'jazz' by accident (playing in record shops and bookstores, etc.), so I am familiar with it in that way, but I don't know Coletrane from Coleman. I have a couple of Chris Botti records; one has the singer from The Blue Nile on it (that's why I bought it). The other was a gift and I don't even know where it is.

What is The Blue Nile, in your classification scheme? Jazz? Progressive? Rock n roll? New Wave? A Walk Across the Rooftops has finally been remastered and I received it today in the mail.
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Yes, yes... I can see how hearing some jazz in an elevator has brought you to your concensus.
 
Those who thought of rock as an art form evolved it. Those who thought of it as an emotional escape and ventilation, largely kept it the same. Both trains of thought continued to travel. One did not negate the other.
 
Blue Nile is pop or rock. Those who think Steely Dan is jazz, or even "jazzy," might call Blue Nile jazz. I wouldn't.
 
poppachubby said:
That's your opinion, but as far as I'm concerned you're way off base. Rock was but an infant child when the Beatles took it up - of course it transformed. Rock craved transformation, it needed transformation. The thing is, I'm not too sure it was The Beatles who were really responsible. In alot of ways, they were followers - but once they took up something, they knew how to make it theirs. First it was the influence of the REAL first wave of rock from the Chitlin circuit, then onto the influence of Bob Dylan.

As far as transcending it, I'm not sure how that would kill rock.

The Beatles were great man, and Lennon/McCartney could write like no others. Even the great black artists of the day had real respect for them, covering their tunes and such.

To me the idea of discussing The Beatles as anything negative to rock is a waste of energy. How about discussing some of the REAL rock rebels who created rock and were then robbed of their glory?!?! Once rock shifted from the golden age of the indy labels to the majors, it could be said that it was killed.

And how about the "genius" of the Beach Boys, stealing the exact melody and vocal patterns for Surfing USA?? Let me guess, you don't know who or where they got it do ya? Now that's a discussion...
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I didn't say the Beatles did anything negative at all. What gave you that idea? When I say the Beatles killed rock n roll, I don't mean that as a bad thing at all. I much preferred the Beatles to Little Richard. I'm dumbfounded that you have apparently misunderstood everything I have said here.
 
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