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JICO SAS Discontinued

131east23 said:
...3. Biggest concern is that in reality there is no real way to get the intended sound out of these Shure cartridges without using original NOS Shure styli OR styli that are made from the same materials. But we all know that there were issues with some of the components (boron, was it) used in the styli and after they were discontinued, well that was it, and all the replacement styli don't mimic the originals. It's as if Shure themselves knew that they couldn't replicate the styli themselves with other materials so they just didn't even try.
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A couple of thoughts here...

1. The beryllium/boron issue doesn't enter into the V15III discussion because the OEM styli cantilever was all aluminum. It wasn't exotic in the slightest. (Which is good news for V15III owners like yourself.)

It's when you get to the V15 Type V that they started using exotic metals and what not in the cantilevers that make it now impossible to construct an exact copy of the OEM stylus. Even the V15 type IV used aluminum for it's (telescoped) cantilever. So it is still theoretically possible to make a stylus for the V15III and Type IV *exactly* as Shure originally did. Paradoxically, it's possible that JICO's non-SAS styli for the V15 III might (or could) be more of a match to the OEM than the SAS is.

2. Looking at your equipment list, did you compensate for the increased capacitance the V15III needs with it's OEM stylus to achieve flat response? The Dual according to the instruction book uses a very low capacitance cable to make it suitable for CD-4 Quad use. And while your preamp doesn't list input capacitance for it's MM mode, I doubt it is more than 150 pf. The V15III with its original stylus wants 400 to 500pf of input capacitance for flattest response. If you haven't compensated for this, you haven't been hearing the cart as intended.

Muddying the waters, while the SAS for the Type V (both original and "xMR" versions) have been tested and recommendations for proper loading for flattest frequency response have been given, (and they do NOT match the loading given by Shure for it's OEM styli) there hasn't been any such done for the Type III and IV SAS styli that I know of. So you might be hearing the cart not at it's optimum with both styli.

Ugh...why does this have to be so complicated... :no:
 
Hmmm, in case they actually use their regular cantilever assemblies, just with the front part replaced by a boron rod insert plus lighter, nude diamond, the additional tie wire might be required to restore proper balancing of the cantilever assembly...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
needlestein said:
Can you pass those along for the VMR? I have no complaints about how mine sounds at all. I have read that the V15-V has "normal" or perhaps "expected" capacitance loading requirements which is how my system is set up. That is to say, low. I haven't had time to do a head to head against the original stylus, yet, as I mentioned, but what I've heard from the SAS compared to memory of the original VN5MR is that the SAS is actually a little more shimmery, a little more lively and a little more musical. The original stylus could be described in comparison as a tad damped. This might be what a perfectly flat stylus sounds like. It's a little reminiscent in house sound to my M97xE overall, while the V15-VMR is definitely sharper, more detailed, but also perhaps a touch "etched," not unlike my AT OC9ML/II. It's funny how much the V15-VMR reminds me in many ways of the OC9ML/II while the V15-SAS reminds me even more closely of the AT 150MLX. But the other thing is that they could all break in and change. None of these styli have more than I'd say fifty hours on them--the SAS has truthfully about three minutes on it. It's quite possible that the SAS and the Audio-Technicas actually have tips and cantilevers sourced from the same supplier anyway (Namiki) so they should all sound pretty close. But the OC9ML/II and the 150MLX have exactly the same cantilever and tip but they don't sound the same--I'm actually thinking that I'm more partial to the 150MLX over the OC9ML/II. I can see why people have reviewed the SAS cantilever as an improvement over the stock VN5MR, as well--but I bet it's because it's simply not as flat. I suspect a touch of a rising high end.

One additional comment about the SAS is that it is even quieter in the groove than the AT's. I can't remember how quiet in comparison the original VN5MR is right now, but the noisiest is the OC9ML/II which is probably why I don't like it as much as the others. The sound it puts out otherwise is stunning, but it's something like going to the symphony seated next to the lady with the eternal need to unwrap candy and cough drops. The 150MLX is smoother and quieter in the grooves and the SAS is quieter still. Really nice, here. I'm very impressed.

I don't have the equipment to scope them and print out response charts. Too bad. I'd really like to have a visual depiction of what I'm hearing just for the heck of it.
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From AK's very own dlaloum:

The TL;DR version: https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/turt/cartridge-comparison-list/shure-v15v

And the full VE thread on the SAS loading subject: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41128
 
I finally decided to put my M95HE on my Technics SL1200MK2, couldn't get it into a Lofgren B, so I settled for the Baerwald (Lofgren A) alignment. I am listening to Pink Floyd's Division Bell (two record set, deluxe) and all I can say is who knew. I am tracking at the recommended 1.25 grams and it is wonderful. I also decided to have a beer (it's 11:29 am) its that gooood.

I never heard an M95HE before, but if the original sounded like this, why aren't they still making them? Time for side 2.

'ner(d)
 
My JICO installed with a bit of manipulation on the cartridge. It didn't grasp the shaft like it should . All is good now. This stylus is hot! ( very tipped-up high frequencies ) Had to do some resistive loading to tame it down. We will see how it goes 40 albums down the road. Detail's nice. It's never to early for a beer. I need to get on with my daily exercise, then I'll have a large beer, or 3
 
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Oh yeah.... that cantilever is oooh so tiny. That is why I decided to put mine on a table that has the arm in complete control. I was thinking about my Technics SL-Q2, but decided that this machinery needed more (to get more out of it). I did make the right decision.
 
WaynerN said:
Oh yeah.... that cantilever is oooh so tiny. That is why I decided to put mine on a table that has the arm in complete control. I was thinking about my Technics SL-Q2, but decided that this machinery needed more (to get more out of it). I did make the right decision.
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You guys are a couple of days & several beers ahead of me. The price one pays to be a working man I suppose... :)
 
WaynerN said:
Oh yeah.... that cantilever is oooh so tiny. That is why I decided to put mine on a table that has the arm in complete control. I was thinking about my Technics SL-Q2, but decided that this machinery needed more (to get more out of it). I did make the right decision.
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My V15III/SAS combo is living on my Q3 right now. You made the right decision. I love the sound of this combo, but more so when I had it on my AR-XA.

The cantilever on mine is tiny too, but tough. When I first installed it my kid was just learning to walk/run. She came barreling around the corner, tripped, and flew into the desk that my table was setup on at the time. The arm was bouncing all over the place, smashing against the spindle. I had to tend to her before the table obviously, but listening to the noise on the table had me thinking that the SAS was a goner. It survived.
 
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Damn, I just bought a Shure SC35C and Pulse Guard universal body. I was watching a SAD stylus on eBay for $167. They've pulled the listing and added $100 to the price. What a disappointment :(
 
empirelvr said:
My V15VMR SAS replacement came Saturday. :) The SAS for my V15 type IV should be here today.

While I didn't install the V15V SAS in my cart yet, I did look it over and found an issue with the damper/brush that seems to be the opposite of everyone else's experience. The general consensus seems to be the JICO versions of these assemblies aren't damped, or not damped enough. Unlike the OEM assemblies, the JICO are supposedly very loose and have no friction, and therefore no damping effect. Yet the one I just received is so stiff in it's motion that it can probably be considered "broken." It's almost like there is some kind of binding going on in the hinges. Interestingly, there does seem to be some kind of lubricating goop in the hinges but whatever it is, it's not helping the issue. It absolutely cannot be used as a damper or even as a lint pick brush the way it is, though. It just doesn't move.

Anyone have any ideas?
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Check the lateral interior of the brush armature. The metal frame of the brush extends past the hinge and is angled outward and upward, forming a flat spring. Just a guess, but maybe the issue has to do with this part of the armature?

It might also be a problem with the hinge itself, as you say. If you care to try, it is possible to pry the cap off the outer side of the hinge. There are two round pieces on either side of the plastic knob. I have done it myself and they pop on and off without much trouble. Perhaps adding a bit of lubricant would help.
 
noisemodule said:
Check the lateral interior of the brush armature. The metal frame of the brush extends past the hinge and is angled outward and upward, forming a flat spring. Just a guess, but maybe the issue has to do with this part of the armature?

It might also be a problem with the hinge itself, as you say. If you care to try, it is possible to pry the cap off the outer side of the hinge. There are two round pieces on either side of the plastic knob. I have done it myself and they pop on and off without much trouble. Perhaps adding a bit of lubricant would help.
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I've used 300,000 cSt silicone to refurbish older Shures that have lost their damping. It works well but 100,000 cSt might be better. Shure says that the brush should drop from full up to full down in 1 to 3 seconds. Mine takes every bit of 3 seconds, maybe a touch more.

John
 
WaynerN said:
I finally decided to put my M95HE on my Technics SL1200MK2, couldn't get it into a Lofgren B, so I settled for the Baerwald (Lofgren A) alignment. I am listening to Pink Floyd's Division Bell (two record set, deluxe) and all I can say is who knew. I am tracking at the recommended 1.25 grams and it is wonderful. I also decided to have a beer (it's 11:29 am) its that gooood.

I never heard an M95HE before, but if the original sounded like this, why aren't they still making them? Time for side 2.

'ner(d)
Click to expand...
Just installed a NOS SPS-5 on a table for a customer. It's basically the M95HE in different clothing. Pretty decent cart. Dunno why Shure won't get back into the "hi-end" part of the cartridge business again.
 
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