JICO SAS Discontinued

[WaynerN]

I see my SAS for my M95HE will be delivered today. I'm pretty excited about the whole thing as I haven't really listened to a Shure since I was a kid. I got the M95HE for free, but it had the wrong stylus on it. Not sure yet what table to put it on, maybe one of my Technics SL12XX's........

'ner(d)

 

[Pio1980]

I'm not a fan of the brushes, great in theory but they feed sonic trash back into the cart body by simultaneously tracking several groove paths out of time with the stylus tip.

 

[Bob in WI]

I wonder if "out of stock" means "out of stock" of the lower-priced version. I hate to be suspicious, but if they were already out of stock why raise the price and not just kill the link? Can you still order one at the higher price?

Maybe they just raised the price of Jico SAS across the board by a certain %.
Might not have checked inventory levels as those are constantly changing.
But, I sure don't know for certain.

 

[jkilla]

Thanks! Any more info on similar styli is appreciated. I wonder how long into the future AT will be offering these cartridges.

Hey noisemodule, thanks for your replies, much appreciated, good to have someone on the other side of the speculation.

To add to your list of other cartridges that have a similar cantilever+diamond tip combination:
http://www.zyx-audio.com/products_mc_r100_series.html

Boron Cantilever with Micro-ridge tip. Not sure if it is still in production

 

[empirelvr]

I just got mine! Very excited!

View attachment 692441

Looking closely, it appears to be a kind of retip, really. It looks like it starts life as a regular aluminum alloy Jico cantilever that is cut off and then this boron rod cantilever is inserted with a spacer perhaps and presumably with the diamond already attached. That counts as a two-piece cantilever, but I think it's really a kind of retip. If I were to ever need a new stylus, I would send this to Expert Stylus and they could either retip it or recantilever it with a sapphire cantilever and Paratrace tip for about what I paid for this new one, I would assume.

View attachment 692446

Sonic characteristics of boron and sapphire are said to be about the same and the materials are supposed to be basically interchangeable. Even with the price increase of the SAS right now, the cost of the Expert Stylus Co. Paratrace recantilever/retip (if it would be the same for this as what I was recently quoted for a Stanton D81 and a Pickering D1200E) of $192 each plus insured shipping both ways, insurance and etc. plus time and aggravation (been waiting since November), a $250 or even $300 SAS could well be considered competitively priced. At the pre-increase price of less than $200, they were a steal.

How's the damper brush on it? Loose, stiff, or just right?

 

[mprince]

Got mine for the M97xE today as well, I did notice in the S.A.S. pamphlet that LPGear enclosed it states that the tracking force is 1.25g +/- 0.25g, So does that mean that if you use it brush down you should still set VTF at 1.75 per Shure specs to compensate for the brush damping? Seems so to me, for now I am running it brush up at 1.25g to be safe though.

 

[empirelvr]

Got mine for the M97xE today as well, I did notice in the S.A.S. pamphlet that LPGear enclosed it states that the tracking force is 1.25g +/- 0.25g, So does that mean that if you use it brush down you should still set VTF at 1.75 per Shure specs to compensate for the brush damping? Seems so to me, for now I am running it brush up at 1.25g to be safe though.

A couple of posters back have said that the JICO brush only needs .25 gram of offset VTF, as opposed to Shure's OEM brush needing .5 gram. So, if using the JICO stylus with it's damper down, the VTF needs 1.25 gram, and .25 gram for the brush. So you're at 1.5 grams...which is where you would be if you used the OEM stylus with the brush down. (Shure OEM stylus VTF: 1 gram, .5 gram offset VTF for the damper.)

 

[boreas]

I just got mine! Very excited!

Looking closely, it appears to be a kind of retip, really. It looks like it starts life as a regular aluminum alloy Jico cantilever that is cut off and then this boron rod cantilever is inserted with a spacer perhaps and presumably with the diamond already attached.

The aluminum tube that constitutes the base of the cantilever may indeed be cut from the same stock as are the various 1-piece cantilevers but it's misleading and inaccurate to say that the SAS is just a regular old JICO with the cantilever partially lopped off and a boron rod inserted. The SAS has a very different suspension from the common or garden JICOs, notably in that it uses a single tie wire which, as I understand it, other JICOs lack.

John

 

[boreas]

Good to know!

Perhaps that explains the extra solder spots I see along the cantilever. For other Shure cartridges, I have some aftermarket styli of no particular repute or expense (Normarh, $11) that also have the tie wire included as part of the construction, so I wouldn't have expected that an original Jico-branded Jico would lack the tie wire. The Normahr branded styli do not have any extra solder spots, either though--just the classic one near the end and inside of the square insert tube like an original Shure product.

I do have some EVG styli that may or may not be Jico products that lack the tie wire, too, but I do not have any other higher end Jico Shure styli to compare to. As I understand it, there really isn't an official cheap version of the replacement stylus for the V15-VMR anyway. I couldn't find anything for less than $50, but I'm in no way the last word on Shure replacement styli. This is new territory for me.

Do you know if this has the tie wire?

http://www.turntableneedles.com/VN5...re-V15-Type-V--our-Needle-773-DHE_p_1428.html

This is, supposedly, the only "cheap" stylus I could find; a Pfanstiehl.

http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/part_detail.asp?PID=P1905

It's listed as a substitute on the actual page for the 773-MR. It's $36.

And this for $90:

http://www.lpgear.com/product/SHVN5MRVL.html

Those are all your choices as far as I can tell.

I'm going to back-peddle a little bit. According to comments from JICO's Seth Kolon here in this thread, the SAS has a different suspension from other JICOs. According to Morita-san, the single point tie wire is both the hardest thing to get right and, more than anything else, the source of all the magic in an SAS.

Now, I happen to have an EVG N75ED here with a bent stylus. Looking at the back end of the shank, I can see no solder point. To double check, I decided to pull the cantilever out to verify the absence of a tie wire. There is definitely no wire. I no longer have one to check but I think the same is true for the EVG N91ED clone.

I also have another stylus here, an N97ED copy (for the Era IV M97) that I received in Astatic NMR packaging (a very nice stylus, by the way). Of course, I can't be certain but I really think it's a JICO. It does have a 2-piece cantilever, though it's aluminum, and it does have a tie wire.

On the other hand, here's a photo of an EVG VN45E, the stylus that tVoM is selling. It does have a 2-piece cantilever but I can see no indication of a tie wire. Likewise, if you check the rotating view of the JICO VN5ED on the TTN site, it appears not to have a tie wire but it does have a 2-piece cantilever.

Might this mean the Astatic I have isn't a JICO? It seems to be the only fly in the ointment.


I don't know who makes the Vivid Line styli. I've heard that LP Gear says they're not JICO but they don't say what they are. And, since I've never actually seen one, I can't comment on the presence or absence of a tie wire but the picture below seems to suggest it may have a tie wire but not a 2 piece cantilever.

John

 

[WaynerN]

I received my stylus a little while ago. I am impressed and may have to do some re-thinking as to which table this is going to go on.

On a side note, I found the technical illustrations of the various stylus shapes interesting. While I can't call myself a "geometry major", I have taken perhaps almost every geometry course I've had the opportunity to take. and from the illustration of an elliptical stylus in the JICO information sheet, an elliptical stylus is not elliptical. It is an obround (in cross-section), and the front view is a modified cone. So in my mind, the stylus shape has been mis-labled for all of these years. I also know ellipse shapes as I was also a reflector designer in my other life......The line contact front profile looks more like an ellipse to me, featuring compound radii.

'ner(d)

 

[Son-of-Vere]

Hmmm, my reply disappeared.
Hey John, I just looked at my ViVid line stylus for my m97xe. I have a 2 piece canti and no tie wire.
Price is a little rich for the SAS right now and the ViVid does such a good job I don't know if could justify the expense with my current equipment.

 

[Thocom]

Crap, I have been meaning to buy one for my m91e.. Is there a good replacement now?

Edit: I found one, and overpaid for it. It's $75 more then it was a couple of months ago.
Kind of wondering if this isn't some sort of ploy to boost sales an price gough. Oh well, it's only money..

 

[mkane]

My JICO is here but the fit is terrible. I'm in touch with LP Gear.

 

[GPJeff]

"Regrettably we are out of stock on this stylus. The manufacturer has discontinued production due to lack of essential parts. We do not know if and when we can obtain new inventory."
No SAS from LP Gear for me.

Edit- I ordered it when it was $139, it's still on the website, on its second price increase, now for $229. What's up with that?

 

[Thocom]

"Regrettably we are out of stock on this stylus. The manufacturer has discontinued production due to lack of essential parts. We do not know if and when we can obtain new inventory."
No SAS from LP Gear for me.

Edit- I ordered it when it was $139, it's still on the website, on its second price increase, now for $229. What's up with that?

For which cartridge?

 

[bob06]

Crap, I have been meaning to buy one for my m91e.. Is there a good replacement now?

Edit: I found one, and overpaid for it. It's $75 more then it was a couple of months ago.
Kind of wondering if this isn't some sort of ploy to boost sales an price gough. Oh well, it's only money..

I said the same thing but my post disappeared when the site crashed. Getting rid of there old stock at new prices.

 

[GPJeff]

For which cartridge?

http://www.lpgear.com/product/ePAS023ESSAS.html

"Jico S.A.S. replacement for Panasonic Technics EPS-23ES EPS-23ED needle stylus"

 

[Bob in WI]

I see my SAS for my M95HE will be delivered today. I'm pretty excited about the whole thing as I haven't really listened to a Shure since I was a kid. I got the M95HE for free, but it had the wrong stylus on it. Not sure yet what table to put it on, maybe one of my Technics SL12XX's........

'ner(d)

Mine delivered this afternoon. I'll get to play with it in a few days. M95 stylus does not have the brush so I can't contribute to the stiff brush issue.

 

[131east23]

This is very distressing to me in a few ways.

1. I am eternally on a budget and the Dual TT I use was brought into our home in 1976 by my dad. I am not so sentimental about it that I wouldn't upgrade in a heartbeat. Problem is that I have a Shure V15 III on it and there is just hardly no way in hell I'm gonna be able to move beyond that cart without laying out some serious cash. I would think to get beyond the Dual/Shure combo would require a new table that would take the tonearm of my choice and fit it with a cartridge that will take me to the next level.

2. In an attempt to stay within a budget I splurged a few years ago and bought a NOS MR Shure stylus. I paid 140.00 bucks (and it was a crapshoot) but at the time it still wasn't much more than the SAS and the sound I now get out of this Dual TT is pretty incredible. I also bought an SAS just for a backup in case the MR breaks, gets worn, etc. I thought that the SAS was actually a pretty good bargain and that Jico was actually doing a great service by filling this niche. So, hats off to them. But still, there is an audible difference between original and SAS.

3. Biggest concern is that in reality there is no real way to get the intended sound out of these Shure cartridges without using original NOS Shure styli OR styli that are made from the same materials. But we all know that there were issues with some of the components (boron, was it) used in the styli and after they were discontinued, well that was it, and all the replacement styli don't mimic the originals. It's as if Shure themselves knew that they couldn't replicate the styli themselves with other materials so they just didn't even try.

4. Part of me just wants to move on and forget about Shure because they won't support older products. But many of us know that these older Shure carts are special and we sure do hate to think that we'll never hear them as they were intended to be heard. Many times people post threads about major upgrades and improvements to your system and I always respond that the NOS Micro Ridge stylus I bought a few years ago was by far the most intense and difference making thing I have done aside from the purchase of my Cornwalls, which allowed me to hear that stylus upgrade.

5. I think the SAS has been a great alternative and has kept these older carts in rotation. My concern is that if Jico retools, are they moving even farther away from that original Shure sound that we all strive to hear? We can only wish them the best because honestly without them I think the love affair we have with these older Shures would come to an end.

 

[empirelvr]

Checked my brush: it's a little looser than the one on my OEM VN5MR stylus. The brush on the VN5MR is very nice and smooth in operation and seems to be cammed and sprung like a tiny damped door closer. The one on the SAS is just sort of a hinge that maybe be arrested in travel with a bit of viscous lube but that's it far as I can tell.

Got the JICO SAS stylus for my V15 type IV yesterday and the brush on that is as smooth as silk, easily the equal of the OEM damper system. Totally opposite what the brush on the V15V JICO SAS stylus I got last week is like. Odd.