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KEF 104 ab

myu701

Vintage futurist
Anybody here familiar with the KEF 104 ab speakers? My stepfather has a set that are in very good condition, except the "grilles" are going to pot. KEF went on the cheap with these and rather than being framed, they're just a rectangular swatch of black foam. They look like junk, certainly not commensurate with the speaker quality. Has anyone here fashioned replacement grilles for them? Just curious as to what has worked/not-worked, etc. :)

Incidentally, he's still smitten with them... guess I'll have to wait for inheritance. ;)
 
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My B&W DM5 had the same type foam, long ago it disintegrated. I made some frames and put ordinary grill cloth over them.
 
My Cadenzas had the same thing when I got them...lots of nice messy foam remains everywhere.

As Radford said, the best thing to do it make up a frame and use normal grille cloth.
 
My mom had a pair of KEF 104aBs back in the day. They are a really nice speaker, the bass radiator really adds some bottom. She had them standing on the floor with their backs against the wall, so the bass was boomy. Up high, on a set of stands, would certainly improve the sound. KEF drivers are still easy (if sometimes expensive) to get hold of. As for the grille, leave it off and show off those drivers.

You could try hinting to your dad, something like "why do you still have these big old things for?" Wouldn't you like me to get some smaller speakers, and I'll take these off your hands?
 
My mom had a pair of KEF 104aBs back in the day. They are a really nice speaker, the bass radiator really adds some bottom.
That's not an auxiliary bass radiator (passive radiator) in the 104ab. It's a B139 woofer, which is an active driver rather than a passive.

The almost identical Cadenza uses the same drivers and a very similar cabinet, but with a B139B passive radiator in place of the B139 woofer like in the 104ab.
 
But some people did mod 104's and Cadenza's fitting the proper B139 speaker instead of the drone cone. Cabinet too small really though.
 
I have a pair

and I love them! Right now they are in my main system while I operate on my Infinity RSIIb's. I put them up on some Dahlquist stands (originally for the M905) and they sound excellent, with very sweet mids, nice clear highs, and surprisingly good bass for their size. Not as dynamic as the RSIIb's, but nice in a very British sort of way.
 

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I've heard some people modifying 104s and 104aBs to take a B139. But like someone else said, the cabinet is probably too small. 104aBs have decent bass in my opinion, what would the end result be using a B139? A couple of extra dB? Slightly better power handling? I'm sure unless you tuned the enclosure by porting you'd screw up what KEFs engineers did, possibly making the bass response worse by making it more peaky.

KEF brought the 104 formula back later on making a speaker called the Carlton three. Here is a link to it on their web site :

http://www.kef.com/history/1980/carlton3.asp

BTW, Maxamillion, where in NJ are you? I'm in Sicklerville, South Jersey. Nice looking pair of 104s by the way.

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That aB in 104aB stands for acoustic Butterworth, which has to do with the mechanical crossover from the woofer to the passive radiator. Sticking an active B 139 in their doesn't make sense -- completely wrong box. While KEFs aren't perfect -- they achieve lack of coloration at the expense of efficiency and, hence, possibly lack of micro dynamics -- Ray Cooke certainly knew a lot more about what he was doing than most speaker manufacturers, and emphatically more than your average tinkerer. It's one thing to try to improve them by making them more efficient -- it may be wrongheaded, but at least it is an actual informed goal -- but to use an inefficient woofer in a too small box to replace a passive whose purpose was to raise efficiency while extending low bass is just counterproductive.
Certainly KEF was trying to make a less expensive speaker than a full 139 system (and the 104aB was also available as a kit), but they didn't go with a passive in the design out of cheapness or stupidity. Its a very nice speaker for its size and cost.
And that foam grill made perfect sense back in the 70s -- acoustically transparent, no diffraction causing frame, and cool looking (by the standards of the day). No one thought that people thirty years later were going to be still using the speakers, and so the fact that the grills decomposed is not really a blot on their honor.
 
Ahh, my bad, I thought the 104ab's didn't have a passive - sorry.

Does anyone know the difference between the 104ab and Cadenza? They both use the exact same driver complement and same (or at least very similar, I haven't owned a 104ab) cabinet size. Does the difference lie in the crossover? 104abs have L-pads, whereas the Cadenza doesn't.

I think that the 104ab uses a different tuning weight on the passive though...anyone else know?
 
Yeah, they are inefficient - I noticed that when I tried them on my Marantz 2230 in the basement, very flat sounding. Now that they are subbing in my main system, though, they are being fed by 500wpc monoblocks, and wow do they sing!

Leesonic : I'm in Branchburg, NJ - near Somerville.
 
That aB in 104aB stands for acoustic Butterworth, which has to do with the mechanical crossover from the woofer to the passive radiator. Sticking an active B 139 in their doesn't make sense -- completely wrong box. While KEFs aren't perfect -- they achieve lack of coloration at the expense of efficiency and, hence, possibly lack of micro dynamics -- Ray Cooke certainly knew a lot more about what he was doing than most speaker manufacturers, and emphatically more than your average tinkerer. It's one thing to try to improve them by making them more efficient -- it may be wrongheaded, but at least it is an actual informed goal -- but to use an inefficient woofer in a too small box to replace a passive whose purpose was to raise efficiency while extending low bass is just counterproductive.
Certainly KEF was trying to make a less expensive speaker than a full 139 system (and the 104aB was also available as a kit), but they didn't go with a passive in the design out of cheapness or stupidity. Its a very nice speaker for its size and cost.
And that foam grill made perfect sense back in the 70s -- acoustically transparent, no diffraction causing frame, and cool looking (by the standards of the day). No one thought that people thirty years later were going to be still using the speakers, and so the fact that the grills decomposed is not really a blot on their honor.

The aB or acoustic butterworth actually describes a modification to the tweeter circuit which gives an acoustic (or auditory) version of a true butterworth filter function as opposed to what the electrical circuit output would be. It is a modification of the classic 12 or 18db/octave filter and was partially designed through computer aided design and target function analysis which KEF pioneered in the 70's and 80's. Originally, the speaker was the KEF 104 and after the aB section was designed, it was added to the 104 to create the 104aB. Retrofit crossovers complete with new plates and L-pads were offered to previous owners and DIY types along with plans.

Otherwise I absolutely agree with your review of the speakers and the use of the then current foam grille material. Like JBL, acoustically transparent foam was in vogue and offered formed or sculpted shapes which distinguished the speakers from the rest. However, like the foam surrounds also of that time, it was not known they would deteriorate or that the speakers would survive over 20 years, let alone 10 in the fast paced world of audio upgrading. That KEF used neoprene and PVC rubber surrounds for many of their drivers and they have survived almost 30 + years is a testament to their materials and the care that most KEF owners provide.

BTW, I'd recommend using newly created grilles too to protect the tweeter domes at the very least - they are too tempting to little and big fingers!!

There is a fellow I know (also named Bart) who makes acoustic foam replicas of JBL grilles, namely the L100 and L200 in their Quadrex and Crenelex styles. He also offers flat foam replacements as well. I bet if you provide the dimensions and could construct a frame to lift the foam off the baffle, he might be able to do something custom for you. May not be inexpensive though, but his L100 grilles are superb!!

Let me know if you need his contact info.

Regards,

bart
 
As a kid, I used to love to take the grilles off the 104sB my mom had, and just watch the drivers.
 
Ahh, my bad, I thought the 104ab's didn't have a passive - sorry.

Does anyone know the difference between the 104ab and Cadenza? They both use the exact same driver complement and same (or at least very similar, I haven't owned a 104ab) cabinet size. Does the difference lie in the crossover? 104abs have L-pads, whereas the Cadenza doesn't.

I think that the 104ab uses a different tuning weight on the passive though...anyone else know?

104ab is a much better speaker than Cadenza (and I have Cadenzas, no 104 ab). There are similaraties, but the unit line up is not identical.

Both use T27

Both have ABRs (flapping baffles)

Both use B200 with big magnet, but they are not the same. You will have to look up difference, think voice coil dia. on the 104 is bigger one for a start.

The crossover on the Cadenzas is quite basic and seems to make the T27 "shout" whatever that means.

The crossover on the 104ab is much better, integrating the units quite nicely.

In my view the Cadenza is not too bad, but the 104ab, much better.


Somewher, I amy have the 104ab crossover diag. I'm almost sure its out on the net though.
 
Both use B200 with big magnet, but they are not the same. You will have to look up difference, think voice coil dia. on the 104 is bigger one for a start.
Ahh I think you're spot on there, I remember reading that the 104ab's woofer can handle more power, so the bigger voice coil makes sense.
 
Fascinating background info on the 104aB--I'm glad I brought up this thread! :)

Sounds like creating new speaker grilles is the way to go. What is the frame material of choice? Some kind of vibration absorbing plastic? :scratch2:
 
Amost any wood will do, the important things are:

That the false front does not come anyway near the drive units so as to avoid "tunnel effect" (like speaking through a megaphone). Wood strip approx 0.7"x0.5" is what I used.

The material used is acoustically virtually transparent.
 
There is a guy selling a pair of these for $300. Look like they are in excellent shape. I currently have a Kenwood KA-5500 and a Rega P1. Does anyone have any opinion on how this setup may sound? They are out of town so I thought I'd ask before I cart my stuff out to his place to try them out. He is pretty firm on the price I think as he said he could pretty much get that if he was to part them out on eBay.
 
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