SET12
Super Member
That is good to hear, what are you using for associated electronics?
Klipsch Forte acceptance
- Thread starter sony6060
- Start date
That is good to hear, what are you using for associated electronics?
Right now, sources are Marantz SA-8003 and Denon DP-62L w/ D-160 cart. Pre is a SS B&K Pro10MC (Juicy Music is getting some love right now) running into a completely rebuilt (by me) Mac MC225 for power.
SET12
Super Member
Sounds like a very nice setup :thmbsp:
Ok, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the inductor differences. I've been reading threads and looking around and can't understand why the NorthCreek inductors are so much more expensive than other brands. I've read very good things about them but also about others which are half the price. Also, I'm confused about wire versus foil inductors like Sonic Craft for instance.
shacky
Addicted Member
I'd say there are 2 factors to consider:
Cost and diminishing rate of returns.
You can always get something better but the cost premiums go up exponentially.
SET has what I'd call a cost no object upgrade to his Forte's. I wish they were mine :yes:
I'd call mine on the lower end but as far as return on investment very high. Just choose how much you are willing to invest in chasing the dragon
Cost and diminishing rate of returns.
You can always get something better but the cost premiums go up exponentially.
SET has what I'd call a cost no object upgrade to his Forte's. I wish they were mine :yes:
I'd call mine on the lower end but as far as return on investment very high. Just choose how much you are willing to invest in chasing the dragon
SET12
Super Member
I'm more then happy to explain a few points.
I would read over North Creeks FAQ's here nere the bottom of the page http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html
Why does North Creek make wire wound inductors, and not copper foil inductors?
"North Creek has had the ability to make copper foil inductors since 1995, but the fact of the matter is that when properly made, wire wound inductors have much better bass and a smoother midrange than any of the copper foil inductors available today - even those we make here. There are two reasons for this:
First and foremost, our wire wound inductors are made on a custom built, tension-free winding machine. This winding method minimizes the stretch and mechanical deformation of the copper, so there is no strain on the copper and its conductivity remains at a maximum. All copper foil inductors (and most copper wire inductors) are wound at very high tensions, so both the copper and the insulating film are stretched and remain under tension for the life of the product. Tension is differential stretch, which creates microfractures in both the copper and insulating material. This is about the worst thing one can do to a conductor.
The second factor is mechanical stability: North Creek inductors are varnish sealed in a vacuum chamber, which bonds each winding to the six surrounding it throughout the entire body of the coil. Most copper wire inductors are varnish dipped, which seals the outer wraps but not the coil body. Copper foil inductors are usually heat sealed, which seals the edges but not the body. Typical copper wire and copper foil inductors will have a number of mechanical resonances that are activated by current flowing through the inductor, and can be heard to "sing along" with the input signal. Because of their unique vacuum impregnation, North Creek inductors do not show any signs of mechanical resonance.
Copper foil inductors also have long term stability problems. This is because over time, air entering the coil body slowly oxidizes the copper surface and begins to penetrate the foil. This oxidation gradually degrades the conductivity of the copper, and over time the performance of the inductor."
If you wondering about sound read this persons experience which parallels my own.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html
The North Creek aren't the prettiest things but they are effective they are not the most expensive. Duelund Cast would cost about 4 times more! I feel you will here improvements using all air core inductors over iron core even if your using Solens. It really depends on the level of performance your seeking. One doesn't have to go as far as I have. I looked at the price of North Creek vs Solen for 3.0mH and the Solen is 1/2 of North Creeks $200 price tag. Yes the Solen is prettier but you don't get the low tension winding which eliminates the micro fractures nor do you get the vacuum varnish impregnation that eliminates resonance. The beauty of North Creek's sound is its consistency through out its operating range. Hearing the worst of inductors like iron cores they sound down right lumpy and limited in dynamic impact not to mention compressed. That compression extends to the sound stage size as well. If one has associated electronics that have the capacity to give you wide sound stages then you will hear this easily with North Creeks. Mine increased by a factor of 3. Other wise the stock inductors in my Fortes only supported the width of the speakers with little lateral imaging.
Why I use large size inductors, here is the stock 3mH 22AWG Inductor unwound from my Forte. Its 40ft long. Do I expect any kind of real bass control from this length and gauge of wire? Not! and everyone is so concern about amplifier damping. You should hear the control of my SET amplifiers with a damping factor of 2. The North Creek has such a gripe on the Bass you'd think it was SS.
SET12
Super Member
I'd say there are 2 factors to consider:
Cost and diminishing rate of returns.
You can always get something better but the cost premiums go up exponentially.
SET has what I'd call a cost no object upgrade to his Forte's. I wish they were mine :yes:
I'd call mine on the lower end but as far as return on investment very high. Just choose how much you are willing to invest in chasing the dragon
Thank you shacky, but the cost is far from what could of been paid. I to am on a budget I can say I could of easily spent $10,000 but I didn't.
Your 800mi from me. I have had jdg123 drive 450mi to hear my system. He has been here twice and I twice to his home. He had no regrets, if anything the experience changed the way he thinks about audio. I have a spare room where I could put you up for a couple of nights if you so desired.
SET12
I take the midrange as very serious. My ears are most sensitive there like everyone's ears. German transformers was a no brainer. Titanium pretty much same- no brainer. I found these used (like new). Can't buy titanium new, must wait on eBay offers. Mundrof silver/oil more serious in midrange as well.
I'll go with Mundrof Supreme in tweeter circuit, but I'll try Sonicraft Gen 1 too. These Gen 1are surprising & I have these in my parts bin.
I'll go with the North Creek inductors, but unsure of wire gauge vs cost. A shunt element to ground is more important vs series IMO for low resistance. So, .3 ohm, vs .17 ohm vs .1 ohm. Speaker cables are 10 foot #10 ga. Some say no difference in sonics for #18 vs #10 at 10 foot length. So, lower series DCR equals more power into woofers. If #8 crushes #12, something is going on I am missing. .17 may be good compromise, but...........
Best B+ supply is shunt regulated IMO. I like oil caps in last position, Solen ok next to rectifier and before choke IMO.
Finally, I do not take your findings lightly. The time & money spent, I get this for free. Nice. Money? Upscale Manhattan dates are at least $200 and you do not always get laid.
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SET12
Super Member
I take the midrange as very serious. My ears are most sensitive there like everyone's ears. German transformers was a no brainer. Titanium pretty much same- no brainer. I found these used (like new). Can't buy titanium new, must wait on eBay offers. Mundrof silver/oil more serious in midrange as well.
I'll go with Mundrof Supreme in tweeter circuit, but I'll try Sonicraft Gen 1 too. These Gen 1are surprising & I have these in my parts bin.
I'll go with the North Creek inductors, but unsure of wire gauge vs cost. A shunt element to ground is more important vs series IMO for low resistance. So, .3 ohm, vs .17 ohm vs .1 ohm. Speaker cables are 10 foot #10 ga. Some say no difference in sonics for #18 vs #10 at 10 foot length. So, lower series DCR equals more power into woofers. If #8 crushes #12, something is going on I am missing. .17 may be good compromise, but...........
Best B+ supply is shunt regulated IMO. I like oil caps in last position, Solen ok next to rectifier and before choke IMO.
Finally, I do not take your findings lightly. The time & money spent, I get this for free. Nice. Money? Upscale Manhattan dates are at least $200 and you do not always get laid.
From North Creek
12 Gauge
Our 12 AWG Music Coils are designed for high performance circuits. The large cross section of the 12 AWG wire (60% greater than 14 AWG, and 150% greater than 16 AWG) results in lower resistance and purer signal transmission. 12 AWG represents the optimum balance between performance and price, and is recommended for most series applications and high performance parallel applications.
10 Gauge and 8 Gauge
Our 10 AWG and 8 AWG Music Coils have a lower DCR than any other air core inductors on the market, providing stunning midrange purity and a bass line that is unmatched. Highly recommended for all cost-no-object applications where only the best will do. These are the ultimate air core inductors.
On a personal note from George the owner
"It is difficult to describe in writing the relative size of our 10 and 8 Gauge Music Coils. Suffice to say that upon first seeing inductors like these, the initial reaction is usually "Woah!" After using them for a while, even 14 gauge inductors, which are far superior to what one generally finds in commercial systems, begin to appear a little "wimpy".
We can not recommend going to a larger gauge whenever possible strongly enough. When one considers that the average woofer inductor requires 10-20 times more wire than most speaker cables (usually well over 100'), it quickly becomes apparent that the quality and gauge of the inductor wire contributes far more to woofer and midrange performance than any other element in the system. -GES"
:yes: yep
10AWG is a 1/3 good cost savings over the 8AWG. I wouldn't dismiss the tweeter going with 10AWG there is a sweetness to the large gauge. The smallest I would do is 12AWG. Even the 12AWG is somewhat getting away from where I'm at. Still I think I would rather have the 12AWG North Creek over a 10AWG Solen.
Did George at North Creek say wimpy? :yes: unfortunately that's how the stock 3mH Iron Core inductor sounds next to the 8AWG Air Core.
I like shunt
my last project, 45 amplifier circuit I designed has about 12 ohm's of DCR to the wall from its last cap which I like better. Instead of the couple hundred ohms or more most amplifiers use. I use chokes but not like most people do.Ever see this
I like it a lot as it can be used with just about any amplifier IMO, a SET amp will see some real serious benefit. Actually the higher time constant supplies will be the most beneficial. The way it works more or less is the cathode voltage will go lower as the B+ sags from current demand. The circuit compensates by flooding the tube with loss current. I intend to apply it to both the 45 output stage and its 12BH7 driver stage supply caps. I will be using a combination of fixed bias and the EFB. I like his idea a lot. I worked with an engineer at work explaining what I wanted to do and he came up with a cool Op Amp circuit that has more range while lower a Grid Choke's path to ground DCR.
For further reading http://audioregenesis.com/efb/EFB-Technical-Description.pdf
Finally, I do not take your findings lightly. The time & money spent, I get this for free. Nice. Money? Upscale Manhattan dates are at least $200 and you do not always get laid.
Thank you, yes I have been lucky my intuition has been good. Even more lucky, I never have had to pay for one or it
SET12
shacky
Addicted Member
How far from Waukesha? I go there for work occasionally.
SET12
Super Member
Seriously? about a 110mi a bit over 1.5 hrs. I'm on the North side of Appleton just off Hwy 41 very easy to get to.
SET12
Thank you, yes I have been lucky my intuition has been good. Even more lucky, I never have had to pay for one or it
SET12[/QUOTE]
Really? Men always 'pay for it' in any relationship, marriage, dates, etc (supply & demand)....... but hey I am not complaining. I have/had beautiful women all my life. Now, on to 'supercharging' these Fortes. Tnx.
SET12[/QUOTE]
Really? Men always 'pay for it' in any relationship, marriage, dates, etc (supply & demand)....... but hey I am not complaining. I have/had beautiful women all my life. Now, on to 'supercharging' these Fortes. Tnx.
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SET12
Super Member
I just received this photo of jdg123's LaScala DIY ALK Universals of course Forte's are far simpler yet but it goes to show what can be done.
Here is is what he told me in his e-mail.
"I'm attaching a smallish file of my SET12 inspired crossovers! I would have never gone to this extreme and enjoyed myself (my music) to this extreme if not for your experiments in low DCR and super premium quality crossover components. It is AMAZING how much detail was being obfuscated and I was using some very sophisticated/expensive crossovers (ALK ES) (which is a parallel nod to simplicity)! For scale the mounting boards are 12 x 16 and the crossovers weigh 20 pounds each. I can find a shot of the originals if you'd like but you have already shown people your very stout example. They have to hear it to believe it. (I smile thinking of the fellow (himself) who looked around the room for your sub woofers...) I'll tell anyone who wants to hear how much these designs make sense and more importantly...make music!""
A second e-mail to me,
"Seeing your crossovers helped me jump in...There is nothing like hearing it though. Your system is quite stunning!
I wanted to share one more little point of interest I gleaned out of a magazine lately. I was reading about class D and class T amps but found an interesting review of some Dayton Audio speakers...$39 speakers...they actually liked them! They were amazed they sounded so good and you know where they gave credit? ..crossovers. They guess that the folks spent some serious brainpower designing a very simple crossover to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses or it would have sounded like most other cheap speakers.
The other interesting aspect of that article was in the technical report where the fellow revealed that the standard industry ratio for parts cost to MSR was 5:1 (he figured there must be about $8 in parts for those $39 speakers). So by that you and I have easily some $10,000 amps and $7000 crossovers...or more
That ratio is twice as bad as we'd heard from that poor fellow who had the Audio Note gear that sounded so wrong at AK. No wonder HiFi is dead, who can afford it? I guess people that make 5 times what we do can But they have to guess and live in the dark about what makes for beautiful music, they're sorting through the hype where we who had to fight for our music and our knowledge really know the score."
He is using all North Creek 10AWG I believe, with custom Auto-transformers using Cardas wire, Caps are Sonicap. Litz Inductors were not used. Myself I found Litz difficult to listen to at least in my Forte's while the North Creek solid cores were far more engaging musically.
Note the networks look more complicated then what they really are, see the schematic below left.
Here is is what he told me in his e-mail.
"I'm attaching a smallish file of my SET12 inspired crossovers! I would have never gone to this extreme and enjoyed myself (my music) to this extreme if not for your experiments in low DCR and super premium quality crossover components. It is AMAZING how much detail was being obfuscated and I was using some very sophisticated/expensive crossovers (ALK ES) (which is a parallel nod to simplicity)! For scale the mounting boards are 12 x 16 and the crossovers weigh 20 pounds each. I can find a shot of the originals if you'd like but you have already shown people your very stout example. They have to hear it to believe it. (I smile thinking of the fellow (himself) who looked around the room for your sub woofers...) I'll tell anyone who wants to hear how much these designs make sense and more importantly...make music!""
A second e-mail to me,
"Seeing your crossovers helped me jump in...There is nothing like hearing it though. Your system is quite stunning!
I wanted to share one more little point of interest I gleaned out of a magazine lately. I was reading about class D and class T amps but found an interesting review of some Dayton Audio speakers...$39 speakers...they actually liked them! They were amazed they sounded so good and you know where they gave credit? ..crossovers. They guess that the folks spent some serious brainpower designing a very simple crossover to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses or it would have sounded like most other cheap speakers.
The other interesting aspect of that article was in the technical report where the fellow revealed that the standard industry ratio for parts cost to MSR was 5:1 (he figured there must be about $8 in parts for those $39 speakers). So by that you and I have easily some $10,000 amps and $7000 crossovers...or more
That ratio is twice as bad as we'd heard from that poor fellow who had the Audio Note gear that sounded so wrong at AK. No wonder HiFi is dead, who can afford it? I guess people that make 5 times what we do can But they have to guess and live in the dark about what makes for beautiful music, they're sorting through the hype where we who had to fight for our music and our knowledge really know the score."He is using all North Creek 10AWG I believe, with custom Auto-transformers using Cardas wire, Caps are Sonicap. Litz Inductors were not used. Myself I found Litz difficult to listen to at least in my Forte's while the North Creek solid cores were far more engaging musically.
Note the networks look more complicated then what they really are, see the schematic below left.