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Klipsch Jubilee Crossover Network

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DrWho said:
Yet all their designs sound better than your contraptions.

:nono:Dr Who,
In what everway you want to take it, I DON'T agree with this quote in the case of the La-scalas or Belles.
I don't know who you are, or what you do, but you will not earn respect from me with a statement like that.
I'm just a plain old motor mechanic, but I own a pair of 31 year old La-scalas, I've had them for 21 years now and have owed a pair of Belles and sold them to a mate. Both pairs had the AA's in them. In 1994 I purchased a pair of AL-3 and a pair of K77-M from klipsch as per there reconmendation sheet at that time for the La-scalas. I've used the ALK universals with tweeter attenuator which are now in the Belles and now I use the ES networks I LOVE them. Everbody has different hearing and taste in sound, But to me it's chalk and cheese. I had no hessitaion selling the AL-3's , and when I addvertised them I stated that the AL-3's would suit those you like there Klipsch Loud, I nicked named them the "screamers".
I'm not knocking Klipsch, in fact I fly the Klipsch Flag in the land downunder, My freind and I think that PWK is a legend, and the people at klipsch have always been helpfull and freindly, but we also think Al is a bit of a legend for getting a good thing to sound better. Alot of the old HI-FI guys in Austrailia have been there with the klipsch and moved on, not me thanks to ALK's networks

Going back to the start of this thred "Keytar" where have you gone? I know nothing about what your writing about but I read it all at least twice. I get the impression that you have earnt the respect of many on this forum.

To the Guys from the Klipsch forum and Al, take it easy.

Snow
Click to expand...
 
DucMan said:
Damn, Mr. Klappenberger! You sure are a bitter, cantankerous cuss. Doesn't the chip on your shoulder make your back ache? How is it that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong? Can that be?
Click to expand...

Yes, the chip is getting bigger all the time. I am sick of being attacked for the simple reason that I know something that nobody else around here besides Keytar seems to understand. I keep explaining the reasoning over and over and all I get is people stuck in the "traditions" of speaker manufactures who don't know squat about filters telling me that I don't know what I'M talking about. I have been designing passive filters since the mid 1970's and selling the software that I wrote to design them nearly as long. I get mad when people who don't know a filter from a fence post tell me I don't! This is why I think I'm right and the loudspeaker world is wrong! If you don't like my designs just ignore me! Again, the designs I see for crossovers are poor designs. If you like them, go listen to them and forget me! :gigglemad

NOW Ducman: You give me YOUR qualifications to judge ANY crossover design!

Remember that I moved off the Klipsch forums to this one so I would not be hounded by the narrow-minded people there and we would not be stepping on each others toes. This forum is not owned by Klipsch and I can say what I like about their designs. If you think the Klipsch crossover designs are the last word in filters, go back to their forum! If you are open to some new thinking than stick around. Just MAYBE I might have something to add by applying modern filter synthesis to loudspeakers.

Snow,
It's nice to hear from you here. I don't know where Keytar disappeared to either. I wish he would come back in. I have him to thank for getting my butt in gear to study amplitude equalizers more seriously.

Al K.
 
Al,

Thanks for taking up the Jube project! I hope to build a pair sometime in the future and would like to try your networks in them.

Mr. Bentz,

I have Khorns that came with the AK2 networks, I tried the AK4s and then the ESNs and can say, that in my room with my amps and with my music, the ESNs sounded the best to me. I also have RF7s with Dean's xover mods. I can say with a lot of certainty that if it were not for Al and Dean's mods, I would not own these speakers today. They just didn't sound good to me the way they came from the factory!

To All,

Thank you to everyone that takes on the task of tinkering with the way something is built (and sharing it with the rest of us) in order to make it work/sound better! It's GREAT to have choices... :banana:
 
Guys,

This thread is getting ridiculous! It was started in an effort to develop a better crossover for use with the Klipsch Jubilee and has degenerated into a shouting match against me for daring to question the "gods" at Klipsch! I would love to see all the arguing about the presentation of new ideas stop and we get back to the original subject. If you don't like my exercising my right to criticize what I see as substandard designs you need not participate! LEAVE! I want to develop my ideas in peace with the cooperation of anyone interested. There is simply no way to suggest an improved design for anything without implying that the old one is substandard. I have given up implying it with my move to this forum and now I simply SAY IT outright!

Al K.
 
JC,

I have email Krytar coaxing him to return. I also suggested to him that if it was my overreaction to his earlier posts that caused him to leave that I apologize. I believe it was a misunderstanding on my part.

I hope to continue the work on the Jube network as well but suggest that maybe a new thread would be better, once the Klipsch "purists" leave.

Al k.
 
I'm Back!

Currently, I'm buried with works, and don't even have time for myself. I work for a start-up, and spend most of my time at work (12-14 Hrs/day, 7 days a week).

I'll be available, but not as often as I was before. What can I do for the Jubilee network?
 
Liem,

I'm glad you are back.

I would hope that you would evaluate the dual passband equalizer I posted a while back, but it's shown in a very strange format and nobody on Earth but me could decipher it! If you have time I will draw it out in standard schematic form. Let me know when you have time. I would like to see if it looks to you like it is correcting as well as my analysis shows.

AL K.
 
Yes, the chip is getting bigger all the time. I am sick of being attacked for the simple reason that I know something that nobody else around here besides Keytar seems to understand. I keep explaining the reasoning over and over and all I get is people stuck in the "traditions" of speaker manufactures who don't know squat about filters telling me that I don't know what I'M talking about. I have been designing passive filters since the mid 1970's and selling the software that I wrote to design them nearly as long. I get mad when people who don't know a filter from a fence post tell me I don't! This is why I think I'm right and the loudspeaker world is wrong! If you don't like my designs just ignore me! Again, the designs I see for crossovers are poor designs. If you like them, go listen to them and forget me!
Click to expand...

First of all, nobody is attacking you.

Second of all, there are plenty of people that partially disagree with you that completely understand your networks. You speak as if it requires some godlike understanding to even begin to comprehend. Yes, there is an art involved and you have certainly mastered it. I might argue that understanding an art doesn't require one to be a painter.

Third, you have never "explained" in the form of actual data or even measurable data the possible advantages of a flat impedance. Would you care for me to list them out? Heck, I could even provide some measurements that quantify the improvements.

I can also provide some measurement that also quantify degradations too. :eek:

Fourth, nobody is saying the "Klipsch world" crossovers are the epitome of filter design. The only defense being made is that they are not crap. I can grant from a filter designer perspective they might appear sub par at first, but from an acoustical output perspective (which is the reason the filter is there in the first place) they actually work quite well. You just need to use their filters with the equipment they were intended for: low output impedance amplifiers. Anyone that doesn't see this needs to go back and take filters 101.

Fifth, you imply that if you build a "perfect filter" that this automatically results in the best possible sound. This is simply not true.

I want to develop my ideas in peace with the cooperation of anyone interested. There is simply no way to suggest an improved design for anything without implying that the old one is substandard. There is simply no way to suggest an improved design for anything without implying that the old one is substandard.
Click to expand...

What you fail to see is that some people are trying to do the same with your networks. I really have no problem that you think your networks are better than everyone else's in the world. However, if you would but listen instead of getting all defensive, you might realize that other people can have great insights too.

I would actually love to see some aspects of your approach become the defacto standard (for passive crossovers), but I would also like to see some aspects take the rest of the system into play too. I think I'm fighting an uphill battle though because everything mentioned just makes that chip grow bigger and bigger.

To be honest, I actually half expected a question at some point along the lines of "gee, how might I address some of these other issues?" rather than "shut up kid, I know what I'm doing". If you're not interested in improving your networks then just let it be known. Just keep in mind the response from Roy when you approached him in the same manner. :headscrat
 
Who,

You attitude has been one of total rejection of an ideas that have not come directly from the "speaker world". You description of my designs as "contraptions" speaks volumes. I tried early on to communicate with DelGado about a cooperation and got nowhere. I then tried having a third party suggest cooperation. That was met by "build my design and dance the night away". Only then did I begin to openly request that he explain the logic behind his designs. When that failed I started telling him his designs were bad. YOU were not involved and had no part to play as you have no part in my developments or those of Klipsch. As a continuous negative player to me you still have no part to play. Your input is not requested. Your bias is quite obvious.

Al K.
 
Al, you criticized the Klipsch networks for years on Klipsch forum and they never said anything. It wasn't until you assaulted their whole engineering staff that there was a problem.:) Roy, did apologize to you, and you even responded. I'm sure he found that last sentence pretty offensive. I know you well enough to know you didn't mean it like it sounded. :)

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/15/774669/ShowThread.aspx

Though he stated he woudn't enter into discussion with you, he then proceeded to post every single plot related to the Jubilee! He could have emailed them privately to a few of us and told us to keep a lid on them, but instead he puts them out there for everyone to see (including you).

It's probably best just to leave the past where it belongs (in the past). There isn't much point in getting keyed up about this anyway -- less than a dozen are using these monstrosities in the home, and the majority are either using or pursuing active filtering. Let's get real here, how many more are actually willing to give up the room, embrace the industrial look, and shell out the near $8000 it takes to get these things up and running -- even die-hard Klipscheads experience a siezure if they have to spend more than $2000 on a set of Klipschorns off of eBay. I think there will always be a bit of interest, and over time sales will accumulate -- but most will opt for the active set up. Those who spend as much on speakers as most of us spend on our cars will go for the new very sleek Klipsch Pallidium ($15K). So, this is mostly an intellectual exercise. With that in mind, you might do what you used to enjoy so much in the past: fielding questions, and explaining/defending your designs. Hey, without the "Klipsch purists" you'd be bored out of your skull.

I can't really see the last screenshot you posted. When I click on it, it opens up but it's too small to read the values.

Can you measure the phase angles of your filters while under a load? A resistive load may not be easier for an amp to drive if it's more capacitive than inductive.
 
Dean,

I remember Roy saying he would not discuss the issue with me, just as he would not discuss it BEFORE my calling out his designs as inferior. Another words, no progress no matter what I did! I called out the entire engineering staff as not knowing how to design filters because it is the truth! When it was obvious there was nothing more for me to accomplish on the Klipsch company forums, I left! Now I am here on an independent forum where I can say what I like. Klipsch can continue design crapy filters for their $8000 speakers and anybody who cares to can buy them and believe what they like about them. I request that those people simply ignore me and what I am doing and saying. Since it's a country where one is free to say what they like they can call my designs anything they like including "contraptions"! Let any open-minded person choose whatever "expert" he likes to decide what to believe. It's all a matter of credibility. Do you believe a person with 30 years experience in filter design about filters or somebody who designs horns!

Al K.
 
Al Klappenberger said:
Yes, the chip is getting bigger all the time. I am sick of being attacked for the simple reason that I know something that nobody else around here besides Keytar seems to understand. I keep explaining the reasoning over and over and all I get is people stuck in the "traditions" of speaker manufactures who don't know squat about filters telling me that I don't know what I'M talking about. I have been designing passive filters since the mid 1970's and selling the software that I wrote to design them nearly as long. I get mad when people who don't know a filter from a fence post tell me I don't! This is why I think I'm right and the loudspeaker world is wrong! If you don't like my designs just ignore me! Again, the designs I see for crossovers are poor designs. If you like them, go listen to them and forget me! :gigglemad

NOW Ducman: You give me YOUR qualifications to judge ANY crossover design!

Remember that I moved off the Klipsch forums to this one so I would not be hounded by the narrow-minded people there and we would not be stepping on each others toes. This forum is not owned by Klipsch and I can say what I like about their designs. If you think the Klipsch crossover designs are the last word in filters, go back to their forum! If you are open to some new thinking than stick around. Just MAYBE I might have something to add by applying modern filter synthesis to loudspeakers.
Al K.
Click to expand...

I have not noticed anyone saying you do not know what you are doing.

If I understand the situation, you were rebuffed by a Klipsch engineer, for who knows what reason, and instead of going your own way, you throw a hissy-fit. Are you 3?

The Klipsch crossovers I've seen are simple, cheap and a bit crude. However, the speakers "speak" for them selves. Some of yours are ridiculously complex, unnecessarily so. Others, I think, look well done.

You have gone out of your way to denigrate the engineering at Klipsch, but your "cost is no consideration" designs cannot be called engineered at all. There is no engineering in the most expensive solution, that's research.

The problem here is not that either you or Klipsch is right, or wrong. It's that you have attacked someone for his bad engineering when you do not do any engineering, either. It's O.K. for you to build crossovers and it's O.K. for Klipsch not to use them and not want to pay you for your services, or prefer their methods.

It is very much NOT O.K. for you to get mad over it (are you 3?), or badmouth somebody else, especially using ad hominem attacks (i.e. idiot).

You also lose all credibility when you say, "I'm right and the loudspeaker world is wrong!" You cannot possibility be the last word in anything, except possibility bitch.

If you approached me at my office and offered design services, unsolicited, I would turn you down, also. I would have no budget for it and I have other engineers that fulfill our needs. It wouldn't matter if you could walk on water like Jesus, no budget, no contract, never mind everything else.
 
Perhaps a slight course correction is in order. I have followed this thread not due to my understanding of all the technical info, but because learning something new is what its all about.
Passion is the great driver of all things, but it is also something that can get in the way when individuals look at things differently.
 
Folks... if you can't have a discussion without turning it into personal attacks and mud-flinging, perhaps it is best not to say anything at all. AK is not a forum for this kind of crap!

Lets keep the discussion civil, and focused on the technical subject at hand.

If you want to be sparring partners, take it outside, or deal with it via PM or an e-mail.

Henry
AK moderator
 
Guys,

I said earlier that this thread was getting stupid and it's getting worse! I will not back down on my clams that the Klipsch networks designs are substandard. I am here to work on the Jubilee network. The only individual(s) I have attacked personally aren't even on this forum! I am the one being attacked. I will not take this kind of thing sitting down and will not change my mind about the poor network designs because I know better and that is what some people can't take. I am always open to technical discussion about networks but find it very difficult to explain filter stuff to people who know nothing about filters and bring up all sorts of irrelevant arguments and then get frustrated with me when I can't make them understand. When this happens I get comments like: stick to your RF networks, or words to that effect. The latest one is that speaker drivers don't provide stable loads. BULL S___! They make quite adequate loads and are NOT the reason for impedance variations all over creation. The loads only have to be right around the crossover region! I can't prove that but I know it's the case.

I say close this thread and let the smoke clear. When the Klipsch purists go back home to the Klipsch forums and I have something to add to the Jubilee network subject I'll start a new one. Right now I am busy implementing the dual passband equalizer into my filter software and will be busy with that for some time before I have more to contribute. All I am doing here now is defending myself from people who think I am an arrogant A-hole. If you believe that's what I am, so be it! GO AWAY! It's not the job of the people on this forum to try to civilize me!

Al K.
 
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