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Klipsch Jubilee Crossover Network

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jc,

Yep, I see. If you do it, I'd like to see what difference there is in the measured complex Zo of those two woofers together in a different horn then the Jubilee. My theory is that there won't be much difference, but I don't know.

Al K.
 
My opinion is that constant impedance represents the mark of a more advanced design.
Maybe in RF world, but that thinking doesn't apply when your load is dynamically changing. You are relying too heavily on a simplified linear model that does not accurately correlate to real life behavior.

It's really not my opinion - it's raw data. If you would but embrace the scientific approach, perhaps you might become aware of this data and further improve your networks.
 
Who,

If you had some experience with proper filter design you wound not have that opinion. Your problem is too much focus on "raw data" and not enough of an overview. There is no reason to apply poor filter designs to audio applications if you know how to do it properly. Your attitude is simply a cop-out as I said before. The techniques that apply to RF work quite nicely from audio up. Audio just lets you get away with all sorts of corner cutting that would never work up at even low RF frequency. There is no reason to cut corners except to pinch pennes or because you don't know how to do any better. You and all the engineers at Klipsch don't understand the possibilities. In my years on these forums I have found only one other person who does: Krytar!

Al K.
 
I recently had an opportunity to view the AK-4 Klipschorn anechoic plot. The response curve bears no resemblance to the plot you have on your website. Not even close.
 
I don't think that's what Al meant. He's talking big picture, with the room and hearing response curves in the mix. You push a loudspeaker into a room and the anechoically corrected response pretty much goes out the window. If the drivers are capable of reasonably flat response, small corrections in FR are swamped by the room. This kind of thinking might be applicable to the Klipschorn, but certainly not to the Jubilee, which requires a significant amount of response shaping because of the big driver and CD horn. Now, in the case of the AK-4 network, I don't think it's a good idea to draw conclusions about the acoustic output while only looking at the electrical characteristics of the filter. I saw the plot, it looks very good compared to some other Klipschorn plots I've seen.
 
Who, Dean,

Believe whatever you like. There is no excuse for such a crumby response from a filter. The AK-4 is a bad design. The response plot on my web site is of the AK-4 alone. It is measured response and the computer simulation is exactly the same. Replace it with a good filter having a constant impedance and the speaker will sound better if for no other reason than the amp is seeing the kind load it was designed to operate into. Not a capacitor at some frequency and an inductor at some other frequency or extremes of 4 - 70 Ohms! This is no other reason for that kind of thing than poor design by people who don't know how to do it right!

Al K.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with constant impedance networks, but the point is that they're not absolutely required. I take great issue with the notion that any passive network that isn't flat impedance is somehow a "poor filter". It isn't just Klipsch - every modern loudspeaker engineer is employing filters of that manner. But then, they're using modern amps too. I am absolutely aware of the possible benefits that a flat impedance presents, but those benefits are certainly not huge.

All I'm trying to point out is that there is more involved with filter design than simply presenting a flat impedance to the amp and crossing over as steep as you possibly can. Looking at the various suggested implementations in this thread, I am just cringing at the sacrifices being made. Of course, anytime I mention compromises you fly off your handle thinking I'm some brainwashed wannabe filter designer. The crazy thing is that I'm looking at it from the perspective of a loudspeaker engineer who is only concerned with the actual acoustical output. I could really care less if the amp is working a little harder if it doesn't affect the sound coming out of the speakers.

For what it's worth, the "in-room responses" are misleading - or really completely meaningless. The way psychoacoustics works, we naturally filter out reflections that occur outside the Haas window and perceive them as part of the semi-reverberant field of the room. Unless you're doing time delay spectrometry, you won't be able to filter out the reflections occuring outside the Haas window that are having dramatic effects on the frequency response. In other words, despite what an in-room measurement might show you, psychoacoustics shows us that we're still able to distinguish the direct sound of the speaker. The direct sound is by definition an anechoic sound which is what would be measured in an anechoic chamber.

And then the ear response...well if you're calibrating your ears to live music often enough, then you should know what a live instrument sounds like. You can then expect it to sound the same played back on your speakers. In other words, the ear response negates itself out because the human mind already self-compensates for the hearing loss.

The big picture I wanted to talk about is that the complex impedance of the driver is a function of output level and source material. In other words, the impedance of the driver is continuously changing all the time. This is gonna wreak havoc on a carefully balanced circuit that relies on the driver impedance remaining constant. This is why steeper slopes sound more consistent when implemented in an active line-level crossover than in a passive speaker-level crossover. Go ahead and model what happens when the inductance of the driver doubles, or the impedance peaks shift around, etc etc...never mind maximizing amplifier damping via direct connection to the driver. Compensating for frequency response aberrations of the natural driver behavior is way simpler than the dynamic nature of drivers, but you even reject that notion...the crazy thing is this is considered basic loudspeaker engineering and is never not done anymore. Should we get into acoustic roll-offs? Or how about polar patterns? Or how bout the phase response of the drivers? Acoustical center offsets? I don't see how someone unfamiliar with these attributes can consider them trivial. That's certainly not a scientific approach (especially when there are plenty of measurements verifying their importance).

What's even more fun is the original network doesn't really have that bad of an impedance response anyway (I believe this plot is with zobels)...

z.jpg

The effect on the performance of the speakers is essentially unmeasurable until you start using high output-impedance amplifiers...and then it's on the order of +-1dB. The audible differences are about on par with the differences of time-alignment, or the differences between 24dB and 48dB per octave slopes. I would be curious what measurements and listening comparisons you have done to quantify your claims.

The crazy thing is I'd like to see you do your filter magic and keep all these other things in mind at the same time.
 
Who,

I'm sick and tired of arguing this point over and over. Believe what you will. Any network that I have seen Klipsch put in their speakers can be done properly to have the same function but also present a descent resistive load to the amp as well. The fact they do NOT says that Klipsch (and virtually every other speaker manufacturer, as you point out) simply do not know how to do it! This is because speaker people (like you) are not filter people. For the umpeenth time, speaker design and filter design are two different worlds and neither knows the other's area. Networks designed by speaker people are virtually all amateur jobs!

AL K.
 
Yet all their designs sound better than your contraptions.

How bout this, what distortion are you getting rid of by presenting a flat impedance to the amplifier? Oh wait, none. :headscrat

Feel free to stop claiming the scientific approach to your designs and also feel free to stop slandering those that don't buy into your marketing. You obviously aren't willing to learn.

Have nice day.
 
Yet all their designs sound better than your contraptions.

In a nice way, I don't agree with that quote.

I am not by any means a filter expert nor a speaker designer expert. I know enough to complete projects for personal use and appreciation. I also appreciate your contribution and comments as well as others

I'm a Klipsch fan as you. I also like Roy and others that work at Klipsch. I don't want to feel that "if I communicate or work with ALK, I'm a Klipsch basher". That isn't the case. It gets awkward at times.

The truth is, I like Al's designs. This is by no means a way for me to say that Klipsch design's suck. I have no technical basis really. I can't keep up with the techy conversation.....I just have has good sonic results.

I have built a bunch of networks...Some as a Klipsch style upgrade and..lots of different types to mod Klipsch speakers and for my own creations.

I like the ESN's. I have compared several Klipsch filters with Al's in my house and really liked his stuff. I liked Dean'd and Al's Super A which is constant impedance...much more than the AL-3 and below. There are others that like them too. Mark1101 will say the same for his Khorns....He has done the gammet of upgrades and he is with the ESN400 and ES5800 right now. If someone doesn't like them....that is fine.

I have done Al's original ESN design for the jub w/o EQ and really liked it. Yes I know...there is no EQ in it. It was for a flat response horn.

So there is interest in Al's ESN in general as some people like their sound.

I will give the new design a shot when the time comes.

jc
 
"Their designs" includes the drivers and the horns themselves...it's an entire system and the network is every bit a part of it.

Really this stupid concept could be settled by quantifying what Al is trying to improve with a flat impedance network. THAT would be the scientific method. He merely claims without proof that a flat impedance is better. How is it better? Where is the empirical data? What is the audible result? Is it still true when active filters are being used?

The crazy thing is I'm not saying that it's not better. I'm merely pointing out that he never supports his claims with facts. I am very aware of the possible benefits, but I am also very aware that they are small relative to everything else. I would love for Al to present some facts that show otherwise.

It's been over a month and he still doesn't even have a design let alone theoretical design. He can't provide any data yet somehow he feels justified to call the rest of the world idiots?

Am I the only one taking issue with the unfounded claims and slander?
 
Dr Who,

I remember how smart I was in my early 20's. It was not until my late 40's that I discovered how much that I did not know. Now in my late 60's I can not remember why I was so smart in my 20's.

Whatever ALK is doing sounds better to me and many others. I think that from following his on going development of crossovers that would show 'learning'. Maybe his 'slander' is just 'scientific' results.

Lighten up. Various scientific 'truths' has changed a few times during my life time and will probably continue to change. Absolute truth is the property of GOD.

I enjoy your replies (usually).

Larry
 
Who,

Stick with your anechoic chamber. I think maybe you just have a tin ear. You just don't understand my "contraptions". As I said, believe what you will. You might also consider working for several years in the engineering department of a filter company. After that time you MIGHT understand. Until then you are just a young engineer who can't see the forest for trees.

Al K.
 
Yet all their designs sound better than your contraptions.

Wow, with statements like that Mike, you'll have people wondering if you've ever actually listened to larger Heritage with a variety of Al's different designs.

Sure, you can disagree with Al's attitude, philosophy, science, measurements, statements, etc.

But, there are plenty of us who don't know (or care) about the details. We just listen to and agree with what are ears tell us about Al's designs.

I agree with Larry and JC.
 
Maybe his 'slander' is just 'scientific' results.

That's absurd.

I don't like the slander either. It's beneath you Al and makes you look unprofessional. Roy publically apologized to you for the fiasco in those threads. He declined to work with you because of non-disclosure issues, and in spite of your continuing assault on him, has refrained from saying a single negative thing about you or your method of design. It's one thing to say that his way isn't the best way, it's another to call the man PWK picked to work shoulder to shoulder with him -- incompetent. You may not like the way he does his filters, but he's still worthy of respect.

Who did ask a valid question, one that I've often wondered about myself. Well designed amplifiers don't care much about flat impedance, and the ones that do have a high output impedance -- which you don't design around (I believe you use 0.1 ohm).
 
Dean, after we spoke, the worm turned. Miracles of miracles. PP found out that a counselor was on the other end and all of a sudden, management decided to get off of their duff. Address is confirmed. Hopefully the 2470s will ship tomorrow.

I'm thinking about starting off by moving the Universals back up front and moving the point to 500, and the ES/APT12s to the rear. It may make the most sense - for now. I'll call you later.

The only question is whether I should now switch the Eminence out for some 2404s?
 
Guys,

Here's a progress report for you guys that still aren't convinced that my "contraptions" sound like crap:

I have been investigation all the constant impedance (there's that phrase again) amplitude equalizer I can find. Here's my first attempt at the dual passband version and it looks promising. The schematic drawing is showing the element values using the PCFILT internal analysis codes since I don't have the schematic programed into it. Anyhow, this is the equalizer for the woofer section of the Jubilee curve posted earlier. The insertion loss brings the level down to around 100 dB by adding about 7 dB loss at the peak around 180 Hz. The flatness is about +-3 dB from 70 Hz up to and beyond the crossover at 600 Hz. And of course the impedance is constant at 4.8 Ohms. But then, if anybody thinks that's too good, I could alway F___ it up a bit just in case he thinks it will sounds better that way!

BTW: The plot include the curve of the Jubilee response which is added to the response of the equalizer.

AL K.
 

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Dean,

I didn't bother to read your comments until this morning. I have been engrossed in investigating equalizers. It's an area I have neglected until now.

To the point:

I saw no apology from DelGado. I remember he posted some statement about it, but it was FAR from an apology. All I remember clearly was comments about praying to God about it and a display of total contempt for any suggestions that his designs could be improved plus continuing suggestions that his God will make everything he does ok with the world! That attitude galls me! I believe strongly that you should keep your religious convictions to yourself. As soon as you spout your religion you are giving the shaft to everyone else's. I tried to approach him in a civil way through a third party with the idea of working with him to the mutual benefit of both of us and to Klipsch at no cost to them. The effort met a total stone wall! As to his designs, I will continue to bash them until I see a willingness to improve them. Anyone who cares to characterize my designs as "contraptions" is also free to do so. I have built several hundred of my contraptions and sold them with a standing offer to buy back any that the buyer thinks was not worth the money. So far, that total is 3 networks! One Universal, One Cornwall and one ES500T + ES5800 set.

AL K.
 
Who,

I'm sick and tired of arguing this point over and over. Believe what you will. Any network that I have seen Klipsch put in their speakers can be done properly to have the same function but also present a descent resistive load to the amp as well. The fact they do NOT says that Klipsch (and virtually every other speaker manufacturer, as you point out) simply do not know how to do it! This is because speaker people (like you) are not filter people. For the umpeenth time, speaker design and filter design are two different worlds and neither knows the other's area. Networks designed by speaker people are virtually all amateur jobs!

AL K.

Damn, Mr. Klappenberger! You sure are a bitter, cantankerous cuss. Doesn't the chip on your shoulder make your back ache? How is it that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong? Can that be?
 
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